Developer meeting November 2011

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Developer meetings > November 2011 meeting notes

Time 13:00 UTC on Tuesday, 22 November 2011
Meeting room OpenMeeting room in Moodle Dev Meeting Course

The following are notes taken from the meeting. If you feel anything is missing, please edit this page or email Michael d.

In this meeting we focused on the upcoming Moodle release.

Attendees

There were over 40 people who participated in the meeting, including the following.

Adrian Greeve, Andrea Bicciolo, Andreas Hruska, Andrew Nicols, Ankit Agarwal, Aparup Banerjee, Bas Brands, Belinda Caulfield, C Green, Dan Poltawski, Darko Miletic, David Monllaó, David Mudrák, Davo Smith, Dongsheng Cai, Gavin Henrick, Helen Foster, Hubert Chathi, Iñaki Arenaza, Jason Fowler, Jason Platts, Jenny Gray, Jérôme Mouneyrac, Juan Leyva, Justin Filip, Katarzyna Potocka, Kris Stokking, Luis de Vasconcelos, Marina Glancy, Mark Drechsler, Mark Johnson, Mark Nielsen, Martin Dougiamas, Michael de Raadt, Michael Penney, Mike Churchward, Nadav Kavalerchik, Paul Haddad, Paul Vaughan, Petr Škoda, Rajesh Taneja, Ralf Hilgenstock, Rossiani Wijaya, Ruslan Kabalin, Sam Hemelryk, Sam Marshall, Tim Hunt, Tomasz Muras

Notes

Moodle 2.2 release

Moodle 2.2 is on target.

New reports

Reports are now dealt with as a form of plugin.

Advanced grading plugins (Rubrics)

A new plugin type has been created that fits between teachers and creation of grades. It is a fancy new way to set grade for assignment (and hopefully other assessable activities in future). These plugins provide an advanced user interface, the first of which is rubrics. A rubric is a series of scales. Calculation is achieved independently of the gradebook and the the activity, so almost nothing needs changing. A grading selector can be replaced with rubric (or other advanced grading plugin) and potentially any module can have grading forms attached. Rubrics has been on the wanted list for about 8 years. Thanks to David and Marina.

IMS LTI (Learning tools interoperability)

A new module supporting version LTI 1.1 has been created. Code for this comes from Ludo in Spain, cleaned by MoodleRooms and reviewed by Eloy. The standard from IMS is really new so it may be hard to find examples.

It is similar to SCORM as a standard for educational objects, but instead of being a package of content that is loaded into Moodle, LTI is a way to integrate the functionality provided by another system into your course. The other system is sent the identity of the current user, and has a way to pas grades back. It uses oauth for authentication. You can see (a boring) demo for yourself by trying the IMS LTI QA test; there is a URL for a tool is included in QA test. LTI packages can be made private by adding key and secret. Because an LTI tool is a separate system, devs can use any technology they want e.g. ruby. It may be possible in future for a Moodle site to be used as an LTI provider.

Mobile

There is one new Moodle Mobile app feature coming with the Moodle 2.2 release: a new button 'content' for downloading course content for offline viewing. Each activity needs a callback to enable it and it will initially only work for resources. It will be useful for downloading big docs e.g. PDFs.

We have hired a company to create android app based on our iPhone app. The code will be a complete rewrite as it needs to be in Java and the iPhone app is written in Objective C, but the functionality should be the same and the same web services will be used. The code will be GPL and available on Github. The Android app is expected to be ready around Christmas or soon after.

The mobile team is exploring HTML5 for a future app.

A new mobile theme in is 2.2. It uses JQuery.

Web services

Work is continuing to deliver better error reporting and better documentation for developers wishing to make use of web services. Lots of web service functions are being implemented. See the Web services roadmap for more information.

QA Testing

QA testing in preparation for Moodle 2.2 is about 3/4 finished. Thanks to everyone who has been involved. Testers are welcome to join us.

Docs

User Docs version for 2.2 will be available soon, with a new, more flexible theme.

Hackfest in Perth

The last Hackfest was in the Czech Republic and was really good. We hope to have another here in Perth, but not in the HQ office, in the country somewhere nearby. All attendees will stay there for few days and there will be non-dev activities too. The plan is to hold this early-ish next year; it is nicer during Spring or Summer. If it is not going to be in the beginning of the year it will be later next year. Look out for discussion on the General Developer forum.

Ajax (Jquery - YUI Interoperability)

Both YUI and JQuery are being used by developers. YUI is powerful, but JQuery is easy to learn. YUI is supported in Moodle and it was thought that if developers are going to use JQuery (such as in the new mobile theme) there should be some combined approach to how this can be best achieved. Core developers will continue to use YUI. The JQuery library should be made available as a local plugin (local_jquery). In Moodle 2.2 other plugins can declare they require this ($plugin->dependencies = array('local_jquery' => ANY_VERSION); in version.php).

Roadmap for 2.3

Multi-tenancy

Multi-tenancy makes single moodle site work like multiple sites. This is almost complete and will introduce a new context. The contexts by level will now be system, tenant, course category, course, activities and blocks. To make it work neatly, a user can only be in one tenancy. This is not intended for hosters who running lots of sites, but it will be good for free Moodle hosting solutions. The advantage is there will only need to upgrade once. Regarding Totara and Elis: solutions like these will still be necessary for adding corporate features, although the Totara Custom Reporting module may be being rewritten for Moodle 2 and other features may be added to Moodle.

Assignment

Netspot is beginning to refactor the assignment module. They are currently working on spec. The Assignment module is key part of Moodle. The new Assignment module will work better with an offline marking application called Lightwork from Massey. The redevelopment may get rid of assignment subtypes. Existing contributed subtypes can be converted to full activity modules. The new assignment should have full group support to permit group submitted assignments. Please give feedback on the spec if you are interested. This will definitely be in Moodle 2.3.

Global search

Tomasz is proposing to rewrite Global search to become more modular. Hopefully it will be smarter dealing with permissions across many search results.

Restoring 1.9 user data

Restoring 1.9 backup user data is a lower priority, but we will try to tackle it if we can.

Usability

Usability is the real big thing for 2.3. We really want to focus on it. We can tackle low hanging fruit at Moodle HQ. There are some small but crucial things, such as naming, default configuration options, cutting down on interface e.g. html block. etc.. We also hope to look at whole experience with a new page format which would show each section on new page and break up scroll of death. It would be good to get rid of the "Turn editing on" button and the tons of icons. Instead editing could always be on, but the icons will only need to be there when you hover over an item.

Previously there was help to assist new users learning when to add each activity and resource. We need to fix this help and it could be something like the help given when adding a quiz question. We will continue with bigger usability issues in Moodle 2.4.

Moodle can start checking if installed plugins need to be updated. (like Wordpress). Initially it would be a check only, but there could later be some safe installation process, possibly with FTP.

Quiz stuff

Better_handling_of_overdue_quiz_attempts is currently half done (by Tim). Colin Chambers (from the OU) is currently working on simplifying the question editing forms as much as possible.

Meeting Chat

Paul Haddad: Hello
Belinda Caulfield: Hello
Tomasz Muras: Hello
Moodle meeting room: Hi, all.
Tomasz Muras: Hi there
Tim Hunt: Hello world
Helen Foster: hi everyone
Rajesh Taneja: Hello
Tomasz Muras: Is it just my connectivity? Michael's voice & video keeps interrupting for me
Tim Hunt: Yes. I get snatches then silence.
Rajesh Taneja: same for me Tomasz
Tomasz Muras: yeah - it's actually silence for most of the time
Tim Hunt: What if we kill the video?
Tomasz Muras: if possible then let's kill video altoghether
Tim Hunt: Is there a way to make the OpenMeeting UI full-screen?
Tim Hunt: Can hear you now
Tomasz Muras: sounds better now
Ankit Agarwal: yup
Rajesh Taneja: Better
Mark Drechsler: Better here too :)
Davo Smith: Tim - you can hack around with the iframe width / height in Chrome
Tim Hunt: Davo, I was just about to try that
Tim Hunt: But I am in Safari
Davo Smith: Tim - you'll also need to change the content div overlay setting, to remove the 'hidden' attribute
Davo Smith: Tim - make that 'overflow'
Tim Hunt: Editing the DOM to set height="900" on the iframe is good enough
Tim Hunt: Mine keeps saying "Synchronising, please wait."
Andrea Bicciolo: Hello guys
Tim Hunt: Hi martin
Mark Drechsler: Hi Martin
Rajesh Taneja: Hello Martin
Bas Brands: Hi all
Tim Hunt: Video took too much bandwidth and killed audio
Dan Poltawski: wow
Dan Poltawski: sounds good
Dan Poltawski: feedback central
Bas Brands: echoooo
Belinda Caulfield: Too much feedback
Mark Drechsler: Nice work there.
Dan Poltawski: the audio quality is very good here
Mark Drechsler: Its like listening to a Sonic Youth guitar solo.
Dan Poltawski: can I make the openmeeting frame any biggeR?
Belinda Caulfield: Much better thanks
Tim Hunt: Dan, hack DOM using firebug
Davo Smith: Dan - chrome dev tools, change the iframe height / width
Tim Hunt: Edit the width and height of the iframe
Mark Drechsler: And Tim is no Kim Gordon either - sorry Tim.
Dongsheng Cai: this meeting software is so 80s
sam marshall: thank god, i found the text chat
sam marshall: :)
David Mudrák: I had some issues with the sound in pre-check
Dan Poltawski: argh
Dan Poltawski: too many people
sam marshall: is it possible to close the video window thingies? I found how to minimise but not close
Petr Škoda: I can hear you guys, but my microphone is not working most probably because I do not have any camera
Mark Drechsler: Laggggggggg
Tim Hunt: MArk, click the twirly arrows icon above your video
Andrea Bicciolo: Petr, my camera and mic are independent
Andrea Bicciolo: Ithey are detected corerclty
Tomasz Muras: yeah, how do you do it?
sam marshall: i don't have a camera, microphone works, at least in the audio test
Tomasz Muras: all right, there is audio only there
Gavin Henrick: oh cool :)
Darko Miletic: hello everybody
Sam Hemelryk: Thanks Tim
Justin Filip: Hi folks
Sam Hemelryk: Morning everyone
Tim Hunt: Is the session being recorded?
Andrea Bicciolo: oops, I pressed get moderation, sorry
Sam Hemelryk: It's too early to work out how to talk
Kris Stokking: Good morning - who's up the earliest today? It's 5 AM for Mark Nielsen
Tim Hunt: We should record it, shouldn't we?
David Mudrák: I see "Image deleted" instead of your cool faces
Helen Foster: yes!
Helen Foster: let's test the recording feature
Jason Fowler: medal for sam
Sam Hemelryk: 2:07am in Nelson, NZ
Andrea Bicciolo: @Helen: according to some test we did in teh past, long recording was not working properly
Mark Drechsler: 11:38PM in Adelaide, South Australia
Kris Stokking: Is that late or early Sam? :)
Tim Hunt: Seems to be 35
Dan Poltawski: its Sam
Tomasz Muras: 5 x 7 people
Tim Hunt: BUt hten you and Mike are clones
David Mudrák: ECHO
sam marshall: echo is great
sam marshall: aww, stopped
Andrea Bicciolo: maybe closing our mics may help reducing echo?
Tim Hunt: So that is 40 people
Helen Foster: 36+ 6 at moodle hq
Tim Hunt: You can get tool tips
Rajesh Taneja: Hello
sam marshall: maybe if everyone uses the pointer thing to put their name on? :)
Jason Fowler: my internet connection is terrible
Kris Stokking: Are we being attacked?
Ankit Agarwal: looks so
Jason Fowler: every time some one types something, I lose audio
Petr Škoda: my audio does not work, sorry
Ankit Agarwal: yes
sam marshall: tim, you can move it
Belinda Caulfield: yes
David Mudrák: I can
David Mudrák: Tim: move the shared screen window
Gavin Henrick: 1 adsl line? :)
Jason Fowler: yes
David Mudrák: lol
Ankit Agarwal: lol
Moodle meeting room: https://docs.moodle.org/dev/General_report_plugins
Mark Johnson: Aha, you can zoom out and resize the window so you can see the chat
Petr Škoda: ppl in dev chat are complaining that the room is full
David Mudrák: HINT: Zoom the shared screen window
Dongsheng Cai: we lsot audio?
David Mudrák: out - my is 37% pretty ok
David Mudrák: its for others, not you!
Jason Fowler: my internet is dead too, I'm gonna head off instead of trying to fight the lag monsters
Dongsheng Cai: is this a real time text chat? I cannot see my messages
Ankit Agarwal: yes it is
Gavin Henrick: Looks interesting.
Sam Hemelryk: I'm getting terrible audio cutout, is anyone else getting it?
Tomasz Muras: every now & then Sam
David Mudrák: I'm hearing ok
Gavin Henrick: I'm hearing okay too
Nadav Kavalerchik: Hello :-)
Dan Poltawski: she got kicked out
Andrew Nicols: Marina was trying to join a few moments ago
Dan Poltawski: or couldn't get in
Helen Foster: marina was having trouble getting in
David Mudrák: did you hear me?
Dan Poltawski: nope, David
Tim Hunt: Marina is in now
Tim Hunt: Wow 41 now
David Mudrák: grrrrrr
David Mudrák: I don't know whats going on
Tim Hunt: 42 yay!
David Mudrák: it worked yesterday
Helen Foster: see moodle.org for news item
Helen Foster: with screenshot and screencast
Helen Foster: explaining rubrics
Dan Poltawski: can hear you david!
Tim Hunt: Should we be able to see what you are talking about?
Dan Poltawski: HQ - turn off audio if
Belinda Caulfield: We have an echo
Dan Poltawski: black screen so far
Juan Leyva: echo .. echo
Belinda Caulfield: yes
Mark Johnson: I can see
Ankit Agarwal: blank screen
Dan Poltawski: yay!
Andrew Nicols: David: Yes
Dan Poltawski: can see scren
Ankit Agarwal: ya now can see
Nadav Kavalerchik: yes
Dan Poltawski: yep
Rossiani Wijaya: yes
Dan Poltawski: openmeetings might be a bit rough round the edges, but this audio quality improvement really is helping the meeting
sam marshall: desktop sharing seems to be approx 1-2 minutes behind audio to me
Andrea Bicciolo: yep, audio qualitu appears good
sam marshall: question: Is it possible to initialise this from ajax
Tim Hunt: Curse. This is nice. I will have to add it to manually grading quiz questions now.
Dan Poltawski: :)
sam marshall: like if I create a UI element on the fly in ajax, and I want it to have one of these grading thingies, can I make that work with some javascript?
David Mudrák: questions will be challenging but doable, I hope
Paul Vaughan: @MoodleFairy says hello, as she cannot get in at this time.
Mark Drechsler: Great work David
Gavin Henrick: very impressive!
Dan Poltawski: HQ: mic
Sam Hemelryk: echo...
Tim Hunt: I guess sam is thinking forum ng
Nadav Kavalerchik: i showed some teachers the rubrics and they LOVE it!
sam marshall: cool, thanks
Davo Smith: to be clear - does this allow for custom final grade calculation (e.g. if you have got marks pass 1-5 you get a pass, pass 1-5 & merit 1-3 you get a merit)?
Gavin Henrick: Will it be rolled to all activities?
Nadav Kavalerchik: it should be system wide (the rubrics)
Justin Filip: Is there an interface for bulk import / export of the definitions?
Tim Hunt: You have got to end up with a grade that can be stored in teh gradebook.
Tim Hunt: Butthe mapping from UI ot final grade is up to uyou
Tim Hunt: But that is a choice made by the rubric plugin, not a limit of the system
Davo Smith: ok thanks - just speaking from my experience of teaching BTECs in the UK
Tim Hunt: Marina is there
David Mudrák: Yes, kudos for Marina
Mark Drechsler: Well done Marina :)
Marina Glancy: thanks
Tim Hunt: Have we lost audio, or is it just me?
Gavin Henrick: LTI is real fun stuff :)
Dan Poltawski: just you tim
Gavin Henrick: just u tim !
Juan Leyva: just you
Tomasz Muras: very nice - do you know how users are authenticated/authorized?
Gavin Henrick: through roles from moodle
Tim Hunt: Tomasz, that is the whole point
Nadav Kavalerchik: some more info : http://vimeo.com/8073453
Gavin Henrick: it inherits the "teacher / student" role into the tool
Gavin Henrick: its really quite cool
Tim Hunt: They basicly stole the same authentication method that twitter clients/apps use.
Juan Leyva: oauth?
Dan Poltawski: I believe so Juan
Tomasz Muras: how does external site know that this user is allowed to use
Tomasz Muras: oauth - ok
Tim Hunt: Someone already posted the link tie Chuck Severance's webcast. That gives a good intro.
Juan Leyva: there are plugins for wikipedia i.e
Dan Poltawski: yes!
Juan Leyva: (wikimedia, i mean)
Kris Stokking: Random aside, there are 4 other LMS's in the US that have are LTI compliant. Dr. Chuck Severance, the "father" of LTI, has tattoos of those LMS's on his arm. There are 2 spots left, and with 2.2's release we should be the 5th! I'll dig up a picture...
sam marshall: I kind of thing you might ne3ed to include the word LTI to make it understandable to people as to what it actually does :)
sam marshall: ie the word LTI is necessary to indicate to people that they do not understand it and it won't work for them... ;)
Tomasz Muras: should 'launch URL' be mandatory?
Dan Poltawski: wow, exiciting!
Paul Vaughan: Chuck Severance's tattoos: http://is.gd/tEy23U
Juan Leyva: nice for integratiion of external services
David Mudrák: number of significant decimals?
Kris Stokking: We like to think of ourselves as extraordinary.
Gavin Henrick: so if you have a website with a new "game" built into it, you can add the LTI provider aspects and people can connect to it... and use it
Tim Hunt: Ooh! Now I can see people as names.
sam marshall: this feature works nice, looks really slick (chuck came here to talk about LTI one time I think, congrats it's the first possibly useful spec for anything to do with learning systems :)
Kris Stokking: That's right Gavin. The game is hosted in an external application (can be written in anything) and can even supply a grade back
sam marshall: and now moodle implements it, yay
David Mudrák: So are we going to be LTi providers, too?
Nadav Kavalerchik: Moodle and basic lti example : http://www.dr-chuck.com/csev-blog/2010/06/noteflight-as-a-ims-basic-lti-producer-cool-demonstration/
Gavin Henrick: What would be nice is if you had a lookup database on moodle.org where people can publish any LTI tools they build?
Paul Vaughan: Wow, this is STUNNING! I can finally give our Ruby developers things to do!
sam marshall: gavin - why don't they have a lookup database on lti.org? :)
Dan Poltawski: probably depends if people use it
Juan Leyva: +1 Gavin
Mark Johnson: This OpenMeeting thing would be really nice with a full screen option
sam marshall: there is nothing moodle-specific so...
Bas Brands: Very nice, are there LTI authoring tools yet?
Helen Foster: you can show chat log
Tim Hunt: For the LMS, being a LTI consumer is the compelling use-case
Andrew Nicols: Martin: Click the button next to the X at the bottom right
Helen Foster: icon on right
Paul Vaughan: No, see the link I posted!
Mark Johnson: I'm pretty sure he does
Andrew Nicols: not the X
Andrew Nicols: the one next to it
Paul Vaughan: He has Bb....
Mark Johnson: as they get LTI support he gets tattoos
Helen Foster: http://community.learningobjects.com/Groups/The_LO_Down/Blog/2011/08/Check_out_this_tattoo/chuck_2.jpg!478x640
Andrew Nicols: Static copy of the log which doesn't update so you dont' loes the scroll
Nadav Kavalerchik: LTi tools you can use : http://www.imsglobal.org/cc/statuschart.cfm
Juan Leyva: bb also
Gavin Henrick: There are sample PHP and JAva code for tools.
Helen Foster: easier to read chat log than actual chat
Kris Stokking: Good advertising, though we should ask him to work out more ;)
Mark Drechsler: Need a better example of some LTI content if mere humans are to get excited about this...
Helen Foster: good point mark
Mark Drechsler: I'm sure its an *awesome* standard though...
Gavin Henrick: Maybe one in Moodle.org?
Dongsheng Cai: yes
Dan Poltawski: *tumbleweed* rolls past
David Mudrák: :-)
Mark Drechsler: ROFL
David Mudrák: let us read from lips moving
Mark Drechsler: "boom chka chka"
Dongsheng Cai: sorry
Dongsheng Cai: i don't think it's working
Mark Johnson: still no sound :(
Dan Poltawski: there is no green audio thing onDongshengs window
Rajesh Taneja: Nope.... No sound
Gavin Henrick: that LTI aspect, can also enable people to "host" their own activities (bit like if u had a scorm cloud) more easily, providing remote access to institutions. so any website can be an lti cloud, if it has a range of objects etc.. and controls access with key/secrets!
Dongsheng Cai: not working
Dongsheng Cai: sorry guys
Dan Poltawski: yep
David Mudrák: Dong: did Flash ask you for audio sharing permission?
Dongsheng Cai: yes
Dongsheng Cai: and I clicked allow
sam marshall: and as soon as piratepad goes bust or stops working, your course is screwed
sam marshall: :)
Mark Johnson: I think the Wookie W3C Widgets container supports LTI
Mark Johnson: it supports Basic LTI, at least
Tomasz Muras: http://piratepad.net
Mark Nielsen: Does HQ need to give you permission?
Dongsheng Cai: Martin, can you speak the mobile app ?
Dongsheng Cai: yes
Dongsheng Cai: contns
David Mudrák: What does it fetch? Just resources? All do mods have callback for mobile?
Nadav Kavalerchik: any schduale for a mibile app for android?
Michael Penney: +1 Android app
David Mudrák: i see thanks
David Mudrák: Using Moodle forums?
Nadav Kavalerchik: i just came from a real class using Moodle 2.1 on android demo. looks good. but they where all using chrome
David Mudrák: right, like portfolio APi does
Helen Foster: can portfolio code be used?
Nadav Kavalerchik: and they like to use an app
David Mudrák: makes sense
David Mudrák: common underlying methods
Nadav Kavalerchik: aldiko in android
Nadav Kavalerchik: Student use Moodle 2 on Android (from last hour) : https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ebKaiTMsjSI/TsuBlbLkeTI/AAAAAAAAB7A/pS3TIYDGMaY/s800/IMG_20111122_130252.jpg
Dan Poltawski: cool :)
Paul Vaughan: really good to hear :)
Mark Johnson: Nice one guys :-)
Nadav Kavalerchik: excellent news :-)
Michael Penney: Awesome (Android App under GPL), thanks!
Tomasz Muras: yup, I believe HTML5 is the future as well
Dan Poltawski: cool
Gavin Henrick: was good news about demise of flash on mobile, will focus people towards html5 even more now.
Dan Poltawski: where it the app if it only took 2mins ;-)
sam marshall: note: re camera, there is html5 support for camera, but not implemented on mobile devices yet (eh firefox maybe supports it)
Bas Brands: I am really happy with the detailed level of documentation for these webservices. It has helped us a lot creating a connection to a .NET HR system.
Dan Poltawski: I have a question about webservices/mobile app. Is there a solution to non-moodle based auth? For example an external SSO system. This is something we have a problem with.
Dan Poltawski: and i'm sure a lot of big institutions will
Dan Poltawski: OI!
Paul Vaughan: @Dan, indeed! We use Shibboleth and would love to see the mobile app use it for auth.
Tim Hunt: I hope you bought enough pizza for everyone?
Kris Stokking: That's really great work Jerome, nice job! Do you (or anyone else) have visibility into the use of Moodle web services in a production capacity? We haven't had a chance to run it through performance tests internally, but it's very powerful and something we'd like to promote more. I'm just wondering what the adoption is looking like in the wild.
Dan Poltawski: Basically you need to sign in with a browser
Dan Poltawski: and then sign in in app
Dan Poltawski: oauth?
sam marshall: sso = where moodle does not have the login/password form
Dan Poltawski: oauth is how twitter and co do it
Nadav Kavalerchik: you can use oauth 2
Bas Brands: @kris we are still in a testing fase for the webservices connection. We used wspp in 1.9 wich had some serious performance issues.
Dan Poltawski: I would say a lot of big institutions probably will face this
Dan Poltawski: heh
Ralf Hilgenstock: Are you preparing the admin/teacherdocumentation until 2.2 will be published?
Helen Foster: hello!
Helen Foster: QA testing is going fine
Helen Foster: anyone any questions?
Helen Foster: currently 71% passed
Tim Hunt: http://tracker.moodle.org/secure/Dashboard.jspa?selectPageId=11454
Darko Miletic: what kind of issues did you encounter with common cartridge import?
Darko Miletic: during qa
Helen Foster: thanks for everyone's help
Tim Hunt: http://tracker.moodle.org/secure/Dashboard.jspa?selectPageId=11350
Helen Foster: https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Testing_credits
Moodle meeting room: MDLQA-1190
Helen Foster: yes one CC test
Gavin Henrick: another good tick box for tenders :)
Helen Foster: http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDLQA-1426
Helen Foster: still open
Helen Foster: I asked on mdl issue for sample packages
Nadav Kavalerchik: i see all SCORM are passed. so what version of scorm is it ?
Kris Stokking: Helen - we can assist with testing CC. Will send you an email this afternoon.
Helen Foster: great
Helen Foster: helen@moodle.org
Dan Poltawski: 1.2 Nadav
Nadav Kavalerchik: thanks
Nadav Kavalerchik: what will replace it?
Ankit Agarwal: We added a few reports plugins for scorm in 2.2
Nadav Kavalerchik: for content
Nadav Kavalerchik: CC ?
Mike Churchward: It'll be on life support for a long, long time.
Nadav Kavalerchik: i know
Helen Foster: re. 2.2 user docs, currently being added to 2.1 wiki
Nadav Kavalerchik: i know rastici
Dan Poltawski: someone could make a SCORM LTI provider!
Gavin Henrick: Dan - absolutely!
Helen Foster: hopefully 2.2 wiki available next week
Nadav Kavalerchik: +1 Dan
Kris Stokking: We still get support questions using SCORM on IE6...
Mike Churchward: Dan- That is a very interesting idea...
Dan Poltawski: /me jumps off the cliff
Dan Poltawski: i've seen those IMS standards
Mike Churchward: /me throws a parachute
Kris Stokking: Dan's going to stop suggesting good ideas soon
David Mudrák: lol
Tim Hunt: Yay!
Andreas Hruska: Sure :-)
Tomasz Muras: it's a long way from EU :)
Tomasz Muras: lol!
Dan Poltawski: ha
Andreas Hruska: 24h
Bas Brands: Would definately like to come! pff expensive..
Helen Foster: how about in march?
Gavin Henrick: it isnt that bad.
Nadav Kavalerchik: And from israel too :-(
sam marshall: nobody can afford to get out of the EU, money isn't worth anything any more here :)
Mark Drechsler: I'll see if any of the NetSpot gang are in the area then.
Paul Vaughan: My college can't afford the UK MoodleMoot, not sure they'd stump up for flights to Australia! :D
Gavin Henrick: it is just the greeks and italians and spanish!!
Tomasz Muras: and Irish....
Ralf Hilgenstock: haha
Helen Foster: belgium will be next
Jenny Gray: and the portuguese
Gavin Henrick: so Ralf ...
Mark Drechsler: Yep - Gold Coast 2012 - Moodle Schoolies
Mark Drechsler: Sorry...
Gavin Henrick: hire a huge bus, and do a road trip across australia as the hack fest? ;-)
Tomasz Muras: quite a discussion :)
sam marshall: can we just agree that anyone who suggests replacing YUI with anything will be assassinated, and leave it at that?
sam marshall: :)
Mark Johnson: +1 ;-)
Dan Poltawski: Sam has the resolution
Sam Hemelryk: +1!
Kris Stokking: Having audio problems but I can try...
Gavin Henrick: who prefers which ?
Ruslan Kabalin: I would prefer to have both ))
Mark Johnson: I dont care, but we've got YUI and I see no reason to move
Tim Hunt: YUI3 is nice.
Mike Churchward: What are the alternatives being suggested?
Tim Hunt: No idead about jQuery
sam marshall: don't like yui, but would much rather keep it than change
Marina Glancy: some functions in YUI do not work on IPad
Tomasz Muras: I don't like YUI - but that's probably because I know jQuery already
David Mudrák: YUI3 is nice
Dan Poltawski: jquery has its limits, from my look at it
Ruslan Kabalin: YUI is good for modularity and infrastructure
Dan Poltawski: YUI3 seems to be much more powerful
Tim Hunt: Yes
Mark Johnson: Yui2 was hell on earth
Mark Johnson: YUI3 is great
Marina Glancy: I have used (but I was forced)
Ruslan Kabalin: JQuery is easier to use for newcomers
Tim Hunt: I think the worse possible thing is a tower of babel situation where we have both.
Mark Johnson: Yes
Mark Johnson: thanks
Justin Filip: Our instructional designers here use jQuery for their work building advanced content for Moodle courses.
Hubert Chathi: AFAICT, JQuery has a smaller set of bundled widgets, but has a lot of 3rd-party widgets
Tomasz Muras: with mymobile we have both YUI & jQuery already
Kris Stokking: @Tim: I think unfortunately there is such a huge adoption of jQuery that it is an inevitability
Mark Johnson: Haha no i love YUI 3 when compared to 2
Dan Poltawski: Ruslan had a link about YUI3/jquery coexisting
Mark Johnson: it's not my favourite framwork, prototype is
Mark Johnson: but they're all so similar, it doesnt matter IMO
Ruslan Kabalin: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/201768/mixing-jquery-and-yui-together-in-an-app-is-it-easily-possible
David Mudrák: with jQuery, we are slaves of contrib plugins' authors
Mark Nielsen: We are starting to see a lot of 3rd party plugins use jquery, so it would be nice if the plugins could use a core supported library, with plugin support
Paul Vaughan: We already additionally use MooTools for Davo Smith's plugins, can another JS framework hurt??
Gavin Henrick: I think that having jquery would enable using more of the code that other systems have perhaps? easier access point.
Mark Johnson: New Plugin type: JS Framework? ;-)
sam marshall: lol
Tomasz Muras: lol!
Ruslan Kabalin: it might be a good idea to give JQuery staff a different namespace, like capital J
Ruslan Kabalin: s/staff/stuff
Tim Hunt: Let's rewrite half of Moodle in Ruby too. ;-)
Gavin Henrick: if you look at http://www.plupload.com/ for example. released as core api or as a jQuery
Tim Hunt: We need consistency in core.
Dan Poltawski: good summary
Dan Poltawski: I don't think YUI3 is that bad either
Dan Poltawski: I think we suffer from YUI2isms
Dan Poltawski: fix more important problems?
Helen Foster: toss a coin?
Michael Penney: Our ID dept. uses jquery a good deal here - put it in themes (pain though when themes change)
sam marshall: I already gave the solution! kill everyone who suggests switching :)
Petr Škoda: sure, we can just ignore all this
Tomasz Muras: Module developers will use jquery anyway - you won't avoid that
Michael Penney: have it configurable?
Dan Poltawski: Tomasz makes a good point
Tomasz Muras: yes
Ruslan Kabalin: @Tim: having both JQury and YUI is pretty consistent, we might need a policy on where each is appropriate
Dan Poltawski: you could enforce YUI only in core
Tim Hunt: Somenoe should make a local_jquery
Kris Stokking: Would it be possible for Core to "bless" jQuery for use by custom plugins? That way each one doesn't have to include their own? I understand the reasons behind using YUI3, and not wanting to use both in the core app.
Mark Johnson: Is there a perf issue having them running side-by-side? If not, then let people use either, stick with YUI for core?
Ruslan Kabalin: I mean like, JQuery would be OK for small staff
Dan Poltawski: or enforce it until someone comes up with a convincing reason for jquery
Kris Stokking: I fear a world where each theme, block, and mod is including their own jQuery
Gavin Henrick: have a backend option where you can enable jquery if you want, have it turned off by default ?
sam marshall: why not just say core uses YUI, YUI is supported, if you insist on using jquery in a plugin then go ahead and include your own - who cares?
sam marshall: maybe, but I doubt it makes too much difference :)
Kris Stokking: @Sam: it defers the nightmare until later, when it actually happens :)
Nadav Kavalerchik: there is a problem
Nadav Kavalerchik: i had a few
David Mudrák: 5 or 6 contrib modules is a maintenance hell anyway
sam marshall: Somebody can make a local_jquery plugin
Nadav Kavalerchik: conflicting jquery versions in different blocks
sam marshall: and then use the new dependency feature
Dan Poltawski: a bigger performance issue is the JS we are including atm
Mark Nielsen: Performance probably, each one would have to download, plus could have conflicts, especially when loading jquery plugins and mutliple jquery versions
sam marshall: to depend on the jquery plugin from all their other custom plugins
Michael Penney: Sam - because we get mulitple copies of it - hard for hosting partners to support
Sam Hemelryk: The versioning is a potential problem
Nadav Kavalerchik: i had to disable some blocks
sam marshall: => one copy of jquery, one version, not in core
Nadav Kavalerchik: it's all 3rd party
Tim Hunt: In Moodle 2.2, plugins can declare that they depend on toher plugins. E.g. local_jquery
Kris Stokking: At least it will give them a direction
David Mudrák: one version in core => contributors will want other versions anyway
Kris Stokking: I like the dependency option
Mark Nielsen: @Tim how do you define plugin dependency?
Mike Churchward: +1
Mark Johnson: Yes, that makes sense
Kris Stokking: but does the dependency allow for the version?
Tim Hunt: In version.php
Jason Platts: +1
Paul Vaughan: yep, +1
Dan Poltawski: well the problem is the mymboile!
Jenny Gray: +1
Justin Filip: +1
Gavin Henrick: +1
Tomasz Muras: +1
Nadav Kavalerchik: +1
David Mudrák: -41
Michael Penney: works4me +1
sam marshall: +10000
Mike Churchward: +1000\
Tim Hunt: $plugin->dependencies = array('local_jquery' => ANY_VERSION);
Dan Poltawski: mymobile is surely the exception to that local plugin
Gavin Henrick: + infinity ;-)
Kris Stokking: Good idea
David Mudrák: Yes, local_jquery is solution.
Nadav Kavalerchik: s
Mike Churchward: "Not too standard..."  :)
Mark Nielsen: Would local_jquery be indedpendent from the core distribution? Could be handy for more frequent updates to the lib...?
Luis de Vasconcelos: YES
Bas Brands: yes
Mark Drechsler: Already looked at it
Nadav Kavalerchik: does it work?
Paul Vaughan: This sounds great, we have three servers currently running 4 Moodles, this would simplify matters hugely.
Nadav Kavalerchik: so there is going to be one one frontpage for all tanents?
sam marshall: we currently have 3 moodle 2s, may increase. But, they do need different admin settings and such
Nadav Kavalerchik: great
sam marshall: so it sounds like this won't be a solution for us probably, but still a nice option
Bas Brands: and their own url?
Katarzyna Potocka: and own admin settings?
Jenny Gray: sam - openlearn?
sam marshall: jenny - well I was just thinking of the 3 we have already, but yeah openlearn as well maybe, I guess we could get up to at least 6...
Petr Škoda: no
David Mudrák: The only problem is that the number of regressions will be greater than the number of features :-p
Jenny Gray: sam - 4 x special projects, 3 x learn, quals...
Nadav Kavalerchik: is it not too much DB activity for one server?
Luis de Vasconcelos: So in a coroprate environment each "department" could have their "own" Moodle?
Gavin Henrick: makes it easier for someone selling courses to a lot of companies..
Kris Stokking: single user to single tenant... does that mean there is still a unique constraint on email address / username across all tenants?
Nadav Kavalerchik: are you adopting totora (moodle fork) features?
Michael Penney: can you share courses among tenants? Easily?
Ralf Hilgenstock: Can you add enrollement to tenant by user profile field?
Kris Stokking: I'm guessing that course restore across tenants would blowup with user data?
Ralf Hilgenstock: but it should be simple to add user to tenants
Ralf Hilgenstock: nomanual process
Ralf Hilgenstock: no seperate upload
Kris Stokking: OK, so you can have the same email address / username across multiple tenants? (Sorry if I missed the answer to this question previously)?
Bas Brands: so you would have something like http://site1.com/moodle1 http://site3.com/moodle pointing to a single moodle installation?
Kris Stokking: excellent - thanks!
Bas Brands: :)
Michael Penney: well ELIS also :-)
Luis de Vasconcelos: YEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!
Mark Drechsler: Sorry folks - think I'm going to have to go - falling asleep here.
Luis de Vasconcelos: Custom reports will be SO useful!
Mark Drechsler: Can't use audio - house full of sleeping people.
Mark Drechsler: Started working on spec today at https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Assignment
Gavin Henrick: the wiki you linked is for the specs?
Tim Hunt: Should I repeat my cynical comment? Probably not.
Mark Drechsler: You Tim, cynical?
Gavin Henrick: planning to include blind marking? double marking ? plagiarism plugin stuff?
Tim Hunt: Australian universities != world.
Tim Hunt: Not that the OU uses it, so we don't really care.
Mark Drechsler: Happy to take any comments on the spec as we build it, which we're kicking off immediately
Gavin Henrick: I can get some list of features off some of my uni clients which they would like and add to wiki
Gavin Henrick: I know that double marking is a big thing in europe.
Dan Poltawski: yeah I can add to that too Gavin
Mark Drechsler: Web services critical.
Davo Smith: uploadpdf assignment type is still supported :-)
Mike Churchward: Kaltura assignment type...
Mark Drechsler: But yes, check out the spec and please do comment, love to hear thoughts :)
Nadav Kavalerchik: peer assignemtn
Nadav Kavalerchik: and group assignemnt
Dan Poltawski: urgh
Iñaki Arenaza: yeah, group assigment would be great
Tim Hunt: Two quiz/question things on the roadmap: https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Better_handling_of_overdue_quiz_attempts which I am working on now; and making the question type editing forms suck less, which my colleague Colin Chambers is working on right now. (He has already finished a lot.)
Katarzyna Potocka: group assignment - yes!
Mark Drechsler: Group assignment has to be in - but peer assignment can be done at least through Workshop now
Tim Hunt: Groups addignments is definitely a separate module.
Mark Drechsler: Thanks Martin, thanks all, night :)
Marina Glancy: eu-something
Dan Poltawski: alfresco?
Mark Drechsler: Ummmm?
Marina Glancy: euphoria
Mark Drechsler: EQUELLA?
Gavin Henrick: The ozzie one
Nadav Kavalerchik: how about public (with no auth) file support on the frontpage?
Mark Drechsler: I mean Pearson.
Michael Penney: sort of works in Alfresco - for images (we fixed something in that feature recently)
Luis de Vasconcelos: YES!
Helen Foster: https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Improved_support_for_external_File_content
Luis de Vasconcelos: Thanks Helen
Gavin Henrick: you mentioned abotu cohort support inupload? how is it done? field or setting?
sam marshall: if you serve everything through repo it'll get slower though :) But, I like the idea of shortcuts and it seems sensible way to do it anyhow.
Ankit Agarwal: echo
Tomasz Muras: https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Global_Search
Sam Hemelryk: HQ mic
Sam Hemelryk: I'm going to shoot off for the night guys - getting very early here!
Sam Hemelryk: Have a good one all
Helen Foster: any chance of extending the spam cleaner search?
Ankit Agarwal: yes it does
Nadav Kavalerchik: yes
Moodle meeting room: Is your plan fully modular, or does it need to "know" about internals of modules?
Moodle meeting room: (Martin here)
Justin Filip: For the indexing, would that use something like this? https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Scheduled_Tasks_Proposal
Tim Hunt: Doesn't Lucene do that?
Tim Hunt: Extract text from docs?
Tim Hunt: Lucene is Java, right?
Hubert Chathi: There is a PHP version of Lucene, but yes it was originally written in Java
Gavin Henrick: "Zend_Search_Lucene"
Tim Hunt: OK
Moodle meeting room: GPL-compat
Moodle meeting room: ?
Moodle meeting room: Hopefully not all 10,000 :)
Mark Nielsen: How about ditching pagination? Just a get more results
sam marshall: it's critical to NOT do pagination right
Iñaki Arenaza: Query only for the first page or two (Google Search Engine appliance works like that)
sam marshall: 'Results 1-10'