Developer meeting February 2013

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Developer meetings > February 2013 meeting notes

Time 07:00 UTC on Tuesday, 26 February 2013
Meeting room Moodle Dev Meeting Course

In this meeting we will focus on activities outside Moodle HQ.

Attendees

Aaron Barnes, Adrian Greeve, Ahmad Aizuddin Aizat Bin Tajul Arif, Alex Walker, Amanda Dougherty, Andrew Nicols, Anthony Borrow, Aparup Banerjee, Bas Brands, Brian Merritt, Claire Browne, Dan Poltawski, David Monllao, Davo Smith, Frédéric Massart, Gareth J Barnard, Helen Foster, James Salsman, Jason Fowler, Jason Hardin, Jérôme Mouneyrac, Juan Leyva, Justin Filip, Kris Stokking, Luis de Vasconcel, Marina Glancy, Mark Johnson, Mark Nelson, Mark Nielsen, Martin Dougiamas, Mary Cooch, Michael de Raadt, Nadav Kavalerchik, Petr Skoda, Phill Miller, Rejesh Taneja, Rex Lorenzo, Roc Mehra, Rossiani Wijaya, Sam Hemelryk, Sam Marshall, Simon Coggins, Stephen Bourget, Ted van den Brink, Tim Hunt, Yiannis Arapoglou, Yuliya Bozhko

Outcomes

Invited speakers - Phill Miller, Kris Stokking, Mark Nielsen (Moodlerooms)

  • Moodlerooms has investigated the need for Outcomes in relation to American and international requirements.
  • Their proposal allows a binary standard to be attached to gradable and other content elements around Moodle. Attempts are captured in the system to determine if outcomes can be recommended as achieved. The system that recommends whether an outcome is achieved is pluggable. Multiple outcomes can be associated with a single piece of content.
  • There will be an API to support various types of Moodle plugins. Initially there will be functionality for for Activities, Advanced grading forms and Quiz questions.
  • Outcomes will be globally defined. There will be an Association UI to link outcomes to activities. Outcomes will be administered from the admin menus. Awards associated with outcomes will be configurable there.
  • The database structure was described. Data will be collected to allow creation of reports.
  • The system will need to maintain integrity, even after deletions. It needs to be backwards compatible with the old Outcomes system.

Moodle 2.5 Progress

Plugin installation

  • David was unable to talk about incoming Plugin installation progress as he was at a Moot in Germany.

Form simplifications

  • See MDL-38012
  • Form simplifications have now been integrated into Master.
  • Developers need to examine the impact these changes will have on the forms they maintain including the location of form elements, advanced elements and the meaningful titling of sections in forms.

Course listing improvements

  • See MDL-36320
  • All course listings in moodle (front page, courses page, search courses) will now look consistent and displayed using renderer. A lot of caching work is done in back-end. Also a lot of other hardcoded html from course/lib.php is moved to renderer including function print_section().

Course management improvements

  • ISSUE NUMBER NEEDED
  • PROGRESS NEEDED

Bootstrap

  • See MDL-38016
  • The new Bootstrap themes will be responsive to different screen sizes.
  • It uses CSS from the Twitter Bootstrap project and can also have some jQuery additions to add functionality based on content.
  • This will hopefully be ready for 2.5 with the CSS components and will allow us to recommend this as the default theme for all platforms (including Mobile and Tablet).

Community hub interface

  • See MDL-37012
  • showed the new block community finder form.

MUC expansion

  • See MDL-34224
  • MUC is being implemented more widely.

jQuery for add-on plugins

  • See MDL-15727
  • There are potential conflicts when multiple JQuery versions are used at the same time. If Moodle can manage that, by offering a single version for all plugins that use jQuery in Moodle, we can reduce conflicts.
  • It will be a challenge to keep this up-to-date and inform developers about changes.

Release calendar changes

  • Major and Minor releases are now in sync. Major releases will happen in May and November.
  • For the May release the Code Freeze date will be April 1 and the release date will be May 13.

GSoC for 2013

  • We are about to start promoting Moodle's involvement in the GSoC.
  • People wishing to mentor a project are asked to finalise the details of the project on the Projects for new developers page.

Hack-a-thon

  • Because of the change in the release calendar, the Hack-a-thon has been delayed to June.
  • The plan currently is to have tasks for developers (bug fixing), tracker cleaners (bug checking in tracker), doc writers (for Dev docs) and plugin reviewers (in the Plugins Directory).

Logging to disk proposal

Sam Marshall

  • Moodle has a lot of log entries, which causes a lot of DB writes. This limits scalability.
  • Sam proposes a logger plugin type with normal as DB logging as default. It will then be possible other plugins, such as one to write to file and then be fed into DB later.

YUI: Using Shifter, and chums

Andrew Nicols

  • Also see MDL-37127.
  • Andrew demonstrated YUI Shifter and the potential benefits of that, including optimising JS code sent with pages.
  • There are also some useful documentation and testing additions that we could benefit from.

Mobile App

  • Jerome demonstrated the new Mobile App.
  • Much of the work has been done by Juan in Spain with Jerome, Barb and Martin.

Meeting chat log

Dan Poltawski 14:50 Michael, can you make me a presenter?
Dan Poltawski 14:50 So I can try the screen sharing
Michael de Raadt 14:50 Dan is in charge.
Tim Hunt 14:51 Good morning
Tim Hunt 14:51 Or good afternoon/evening
Yuliya Bozhko 14:53 quite late evening :)
Rex Lorenzo 14:54 yes
Mary Cooch 14:54 yes
Yuliya Bozhko 14:54 yes
James Salsman 14:54 thanks
James Salsman 14:55 Michael I don't know whether you can see my chat. I don't want to second-guess Tim, but the suggested plugin points you sent in email today are what I had in mind
Dan Poltawski 14:55 we can see your chat james
James Salsman 14:55 oh good
Martin Dougiamas 14:59 I can't join in fully from the hospital hee so will be lurking only. Carry on.
Martin Dougiamas 15:00 Did you turn on recording Michael?
Phill Miller 15:01 I'm having audio problems, I will be right back
Bas Brands 15:01 should we already be hearing something?
Justin Filip 15:01 Yes
Simon Coggins 15:01 Bas, yes - you have to enable audio
Simon Coggins 15:01 in the top left
Simon Coggins 15:02 then mute your mic if you have one
Davo Smith 15:02 I've enabled audio and muted my mic, but no sound
Mark Nielsen 15:02 https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Outcomes_Technical_Specification
Helen Foster 15:02 I can't hear anything either
Dan Poltawski 15:02 I am controlling the mute unmute button here
Mary Cooch 15:02 yes
Yuliya Bozhko 15:02 yes
Andrew Nicols 15:02 yup
Stephen Bourget 15:02 yes
Brian Merritt 15:02 great
Bas Brands 15:02 ah yes,
Dan Poltawski 15:02 (can't talk and participate at the same time)
Dan Poltawski 15:03 I mean, press the mute button and unbmute button
Phill Miller 15:04 Nobody seems to be able to hear me
Rex Lorenzo 15:04 https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Outcomes_Technical_Specification
Andrew Nicols 15:05 much better desktop sharing size - thanks :)
James Salsman 15:05 yes
James Salsman 15:05 yes
Bas Brands 15:05 yes
Stephen Bourget 15:05 yes
Yiannis Arapoglou 15:05 yes
Rex Lorenzo 15:05 Something cut off
Phill Miller 15:05 Seems like we are all good
Mark Johnson 15:06 Hello!
Brian Merritt 15:06 hiya
Jason Hardin 15:06 Hello
Phill Miller 15:06 United States
Brian Merritt 15:06 Whitstable, England
Rex Lorenzo 15:06 Hello, from Los Angeles, CA, USA
Simon Coggins 15:06 Hi everyone from Wellington, NZ
James Salsman 15:06 hi I'm in Colorado
Yuliya Bozhko 15:06 Hi from New zealand
Kris Stokking 15:06 Hi from Baltimore, MD USA
Mark Johnson 15:06 Oxford, UK
Mary Cooch 15:06 Hello from Preston UK
Yiannis Arapoglou 15:06 Hello, Greece!
Bas Brands 15:06 Netherlands - Arnhem, Europe
Ted van den Brink 15:06 Hello from the Netherlands!
Jason Hardin 15:06 Mckinleyville CA USA
sam MARshall 15:06 hello :) sam marshall from the Open University, in lovely milton keynes, uk
Stephen Bourget 15:06 Hi from New Hampshire USA
Mark Nielsen 15:06 Hello, Seattle WA US
Tim Hunt 15:06 Tim in a cold grey Milton Keynes, UK
Andrew Nicols 15:06 Andrew Nicols, Lancaster University, UK, Europe, the World
Justin Filip 15:06 Waterloo, ON Canada.
Anthony Borrow 15:06 Enjoying some ice cream to make the meeting a little sweeter from Albuquerque, NM
Justin Filip 15:07 (currently regretting sleeping for a bit before joining this meeting right now)
Davo Smith 15:07 Can everyone else hear?
Helen Foster 15:07 no
Davo Smith 15:07 I'm getting no sound at all
Ted van den Brink 15:07 yes i have sound
Bas Brands 15:08 click the button top left -> click join audio
Alex Walker 15:08 I have sound too. Hello, by the way.
Dan Poltawski 15:08 micael says, can you hear us
Dan Poltawski 15:08 (in audio form)
Davo Smith 15:08 I've clicked 'join audio' many times
Bas Brands 15:08 click harder :)
Dan Poltawski 15:08 (I assume some people can hear us:)
Claire Browne 15:08 Yes
Helen Foster 15:08 I can hear now
Davo Smith 15:08 Ahhh - I clicked again to disable my microphone - working now
Mary Cooch 15:09 good!
Simon Coggins 15:09 Davo, someone suggested leaving the room and coming back in to fix audio issues
Dan Poltawski 15:09 Hi Phil!
Martin Dougiamas 15:09 I'm he lurking only
Gareth J Barnard 15:09 Morning :)
Martin Dougiamas 15:09 I'm here lurking only (with much lag)
Martin Dougiamas 15:11 This is a crazy hour for the US, thanks guys for being up!!
Anthony Borrow 15:11 helpful for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcome-based_education
Anthony Borrow 15:13 here in the US, I envision the ability to tie outcomes into specific activities will help demonstrate achievement of things like Common Core standards - http://www.corestandards.org/
Tim Hunt 15:13 Achieved / Not achieved is really just a two-item scale.
Tim Hunt 15:13 One way to look at this is to say "do we want to hard-code one particular scale?"
Tim Hunt 15:14 Also, if you think it is possible to say difinitively that has student has / has not achieved an outcome, then you have probalby never done any teaching ;-)
Dan Poltawski 15:14 Mark: can you zoom the browser text a bit? (We can't easily read it)
Phill Miller 15:15 Tim - It's a little more nuanced than just achieved/not achieved...
Claire Browne 15:15  :)
Tim Hunt 15:15 Phill, I can only go by what Kris said.
Phill Miller 15:15 There are many levels of progress towards a competency or outcome, but in the end, you either achieve it or not
Phill Miller 15:15 Understood :)
Phill Miller 15:16 The reports are used to show current progress and levels of achievement, up until achievement
Anthony Borrow 15:17 Tim - typically these reports are for administrators/districts/etc - teachers understand that students learning may not correspond to what the reports say
Justin Filip 15:17 This looks similar (but much more fleshed out and pluggable) to what we've done with outcomes in the past.
Phill Miller 15:18 @Justin - Does that mean that you already have all of the code written?
Dan Poltawski 15:18 Mark: the other mark asks if you can zoom in one more time
Dan Poltawski 15:18 mark says he'll get his eyes tested next week
Justin Filip 15:18 We never ended up porting to to Moodle 2 but it's in our Github account for 1.9, yeah.
Rex Lorenzo 15:18 Can this be used for ABET accreditation? Or WASC (In US)
Phill Miller 15:18 @Justin - We'd love to take a look.
roc mehra 15:19 Hi All
Phill Miller 15:19 @Rex - Yes, parts of this can be used for ABET and WASC. it will not have everything needed, but it would be a solid foundation
Phill Miller 15:20 If it is rolled out in a comprehensive way, it would be a strong foundation for accreditation
Justin Filip 15:20 Errr... maybe it's not in our Github account. =/ It can be. But I'm nowhere near competent enough at 2am to get that done right now. I'm noting to get what we've got for 1.9 up there "tomorrow". =)
Phill Miller 15:21 @ Justin - No worries. I'm groggy myself. My wife was not too excited when my alarm went off at 1:30 AM.
sam MARshall 15:23 yep
Dan Poltawski 15:23 yep
Justin Filip 15:23 Yes
Mark Johnson 15:23 yes
Stephen Bourget 15:23 yes
Rex Lorenzo 15:23 yes
Tim Hunt 15:24 Where will they be?
Kris Stokking 15:25 Sorry Tim - missed the context of "they". Can you clarify?
Anthony Borrow 15:26 seems a little counter-intutive that they are managed under grades>outcomes but not visible in the gradebook
Tim Hunt 15:26 That was in the context of "They will not be in the gradebook"
sam MARshall 15:26 Tim, there was a list of tables at top
Tim Hunt 15:26 The answer may be coming.
sam MARshall 15:26 I assume they go in those tables :)
Tim Hunt 15:26 sam, I am asking aobut the UI.
Mark Nielsen 15:26 I got muted :)
Dan Poltawski 15:27 /me slaps michael
sam MARshall 15:27 lol
Phill Miller 15:27 @Tim - In the UI, they would be linked from the OUtcomes link in the Settings Block. We have some feedback that we may want to have some UI relationship with the Gradebook, but I need to do some user testing of that idea.
Michael de Raadt 15:27 Sorry, I had to re-log in.
Tim Hunt 15:28 Phil, that makes sense. Thanks.
Phill Miller 15:28 In the original spec, Outcomes had its own page, which makes sense because there is a lot of data to display, but we might want to roll some of that into a summary report in the GB
Tim Hunt 15:29 I think it is OK for the outcomes system to be separate from the gradebook system, but with natural links in the UI.
Phill Miller 15:30 nothing too major in the chat Mark
Dan Poltawski 15:30 (Damyon) If advanced grading criteria have a numerical grade - how does that map to pass/fail for outcomes
Tim Hunt 15:31 Hmm. Elsewhere in Moodle idnumber is not globally unique. It is just locally unique - used for data integration with other institutions, but often quite meaningful like B747-13F
Tim Hunt 15:31 If you want a GUID, call it a different name.
Phill Miller 15:32 @Damyon - It would be a piece of data that can be used, either by a recommendation engine or by the instructor to determine whether they had achieved the outcome or not.
Andrew Nicols 15:32 idnumber not even always totally unique. In groups and groupings it's only unique within that course
Tim Hunt 15:32 Exactly.
Kris Stokking 15:32 @Damyon - this goes into the recommendation engine. You can set different thresholds that it can use to determine the recommendation, but ultimately the instructor makes the call.
Tim Hunt 15:32 It is as unique as is useful.
sam MARshall 15:32 I think it would be ok to treat idnumberas something to identifiy a backup/restore probably
Tim Hunt 15:33 sam, I think it is good to have somethin like that, but it is not an idnumberin the Moodle sense
sam MARshall 15:33 well it could be if you can type it? I don't think moodle ever defines what idnumber is really, it's just if you want to store some data on stuff
Phill Miller 15:33 We heard from faculty that we talked to that they would often have multiple activities mapped to outcomes, and they want to use advanced grading activities as well as quizzes, etc. to make sure that a student has achieved it.
sam MARshall 15:34 if it's auto-generated, i agree the field should be called something else
Kris Stokking 15:34 I think that idnumber suffers from inconsistency. We had actually renamed it to idnumber from GUID based on developer feedback... :)
sam MARshall 15:34  :)
Tim Hunt 15:34 Kris, then you asked the wrong developers ;-)
Phill Miller 15:35 On global uniqueness, the goal is for us to be able to take a Moodle backup, with content mapped to Outcomes, from Moodle to Moodle, and the mappings should live on.
Tim Hunt 15:36 metadata in moodle is a pandora's box. For now, you are probably wise to do your own thing. In future, if a super, global medatada system gets added to Moodle, we can migrate your data.
sam MARshall 15:36 Regarding those names in the meta table - is it ok to use English strings for the 'name' field really? Or should they be some kind of lower-case word with a lang string for it, like 'educationlevel' instead of 'Education level'
Tim Hunt 15:36 Should probably add a contextid column to outcome_content.
Kris Stokking 15:37 @Tim: Regarding the contextid, we're almost there... :)
Tim Hunt 15:37 I think having a separate table for that is worse.
sam MARshall 15:38 so outcome_mod_content_map is sort of like a cache of data that is really mastered in other palces (like the quiz's tables).. .hmm
Dan Poltawski 15:39 (Jerome) Will this support Web services?
Tim Hunt 15:39 In the quiz case, the quiz mod instance will already have outcomes mapped, as well as the questions having outcomes mapped.
Kris Stokking 15:39 I wouldn't think of it as a cache. It's to handle a specific use case when outcomes can be assigned to content outside of the context of the course (i.e. to a question in a question bank outside the course).
Dan Poltawski 15:39 (Jerome) you will need ws for sharing outcome ne==between site
Tim Hunt 15:40 So, outcomes attemt mapps to outcome_content, not outcomes_content_map?
sam MARshall 15:41 Kris - Maybe I misunderstood, I thought that information can be obtained from existing database tables - for instance, you can find out from quiz/question tables which questions are included in the quiz, it's obviously compiicated and item-specific but
Kris Stokking 15:41 Once the content is brought into the context of the course (i.e. a question from the example above is used in a specific quiz), a record is created in outcome_mod_content_map to relate the outcomecontent with the course module.
Tim Hunt 15:42 I am going to have to look at this schema in my own time, but it does not look obviously right ot me yet.
Justin Filip 15:42 If you need a historal record of what the student at that time to achieve their outcomes/expectations it makes sense. If the activities / questions change over time you can't map old outcome results to the current data.
sam MARshall 15:42 Ah, I see
Phill Miller 15:42 Additionally, we are looking at how the outcomes that have been achieved relate to the Open Badges project
Justin Filip 15:42 ^what the student did at that time
Tim Hunt 15:43 I am not convienced that gradebook is a good precident there. I woudl just put it all in top-level outcome/ folder, with an outcome/lib.
Justin Filip 15:44  ? /admin/tool/outcome/
Dan Poltawski 15:44 Will this be integrated along with open badges, so that say for example, an award could be a badge someone coul show off.
Dan Poltawski 15:44 (mark^)
Kris Stokking 15:44 @Jerome: Web services should be supported in the initial version. Admittedly, we need to add that to the docs.
Phill Miller 15:45 @Dan - That's the idea. We aren't including that in this development cycle necessarily, but we would like to get badges integration done shortly. We're watching that project closely
Dan Poltawski 15:45 (Mark) Cool
Kris Stokking 15:46 @Mark: We've posted in the discussion about Open Badges about how they could potentially use Outcomes to achieve a Badge. The reverse can't apply because the badges system can't feed into anything that the recommendation engine can use.
Tim Hunt 15:46 For that sort of linking, you need a callback funcion in the plugin.
sam MARshall 15:47 Isn't that backwards - shouldn't you be ... what Tim said... rather than adding a plugin type to mediate between the plugin and outcomes
Tim Hunt 15:47 Given and outcome_thing, tell me the URL.
Tim Hunt 15:47 Except that, for qtypes, there is no need for difffernt mappings fordiffenret types. It will be generic to any qtype.
Michael de Raadt 15:47 I don't want to rush you guys, but it would be good to have time for other topics.
Tim Hunt 15:47 For mod,s, it is the other way around.
Kris Stokking 15:48 @MdR: I thought you set this meeting for 3 hours... you mean that wasn't just for us? :)
Tim Hunt 15:48 For qtypes, we have a single question/format plugin type, that does both import and export.
sam MARshall 15:48 import/export plugins sound good
Tim Hunt 15:48 Not sure if that is really better though.
Tim Hunt 15:48 Since most only do eitherimport or export!
Tim Hunt 15:48 Gradebook does hem separately
Dan Poltawski 15:53 https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Outcomes_Technical_Specification
Phill Miller 15:53 PLease review everyone and get us feedback quickly! We are ready to get started on this as soon as possible.
Dan Poltawski 15:53 https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=220143
Tim Hunt 15:53 There are things there which I would like to discuss.
sam MARshall 15:54 Maybe use the forum? I'll post something, I think callbacks are more sense than a plugin-linking-plugin
Tim Hunt 15:54 I don't think you can just say "Here is this huge technical spec that we have dumpen on the world" You have 10 seconds to comment.
Tim Hunt 15:54 You have been thinking about this for weeks. Give us a chance to catch up.
sam MARshall 15:54 yes it looks good :)
Tim Hunt 15:55 It looks 90% good. Some of hte 10% worries me a lot.
Tim Hunt 15:55 A mistake now could be very expensive for future Moodle development.
Tim Hunt 15:55 Kris / Mark, could we have a chat on Skype some time?
Phill Miller 15:55 @Tim - 20 seconds better? Just kidding. We have been thinking about this for months. Love feedback, but I would ask for it to happen relatively quickly. We are estimating and planning the work right now.
Kris Stokking 15:56 Absolutely Tim - kstokking_moodlerooms if you don't have it. Anyone is welcome to hit me up for questions.
sam MARshall 15:57 The automatic collapse is kind of annoying me :) I think it probably gets better as you use it though
Tim Hunt 15:57 Possibly Thurs/Fri this week. I have a busy week.
Andrew Nicols 15:57 Don't think so
Jason Hardin 15:58 any talk about moving to wards important fields?
Jason Hardin 15:58 so that fields that are must have are avaialbel and then expand other fields
Andrew Nicols 15:58 Dan - can you demonstrate the show more/show less ?
Tim Hunt 15:58 Ideas for improvig this shortforms stuff, like 'expand all', add your ideas to https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-38012
Jason Hardin 15:58 so that the inital form is set to be just what 90% of peopel use 90% of the time
Andrew Nicols 15:59 Advanced fields would toggle all advanced fields on the whole form across all sections; show more/show less shows them within a section instead
Tim Hunt 15:59 We expect that with shortforms, we will have fewer advanced fields overall.
Justin Filip 15:59 If we try a plugin in master and see something funky, should be provide feedback directly on MDL-38012 ?
Tim Hunt 15:59 But there were still some places where they where a good idea, so we kept the idea.
Helen Foster 15:59 is anyone reviewing all activity and resource setting for consistency?
Anthony Borrow 15:59 is anyone focusing specifically on usability, UI, design?
Tim Hunt 15:59 LOL Anthony
Andrew Nicols 15:59 Justin: Yup - that would be good.
Tim Hunt 16:00 Justin, probalby separate bug in teh appropriate place for each plugin tha thas issues.
Tim Hunt 16:00 Then link it to 38012
Justin Filip 16:00 Fair enough. Thanks, guys.
Marina Glancy 16:01 there are a lot of functions in course lib that are moved to renderer
Tim Hunt 16:01 Michael, It is probably OK if you just go quickly through the list. It ishelpful enough for you just to list what is on the roadmap. Then if ypeople want ot know more, they can go and find out
Andrew Nicols 16:01 yup - we can hear you just about
Justin Filip 16:01 Really quiet
Marina Glancy 16:02 sorry, my mic is not working
Marina Glancy 16:02 https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-36320
Anthony Borrow 16:02 I do not see Survey 2 on the list - this seems to be something that keeps getting pushed back
Andrew Nicols 16:02 Bas Brands
Tim Hunt 16:02 Andrew N is here, I think.
Tim Hunt 16:02 OR Bas
Bas Brands 16:03 Yes :)
sam MARshall 16:03 I hope somebody's about to tell us what bootstrap is :)
Andrew Nicols 16:03 Bas would be much better to talk about it than me ;)
Justin Filip 16:03 It got a lot of mention in Vancouver at the Canada Moot the week before mootie as well.
Alex Walker 16:03 We've got Bootstrap integrated into our Moodle theme, too.
Bas Brands 16:03 Yes I could do a short intro
Tim Hunt 16:03 Do either of them have acess to the Mic?
sam MARshall 16:04 yep
Mark Johnson 16:04 yep
Justin Filip 16:04 y
Ted van den Brink 16:04 yes
Davo Smith 16:04 yes
Mary Cooch 16:04 loud and clear
Alex Walker 16:04 yep
Yiannis Arapoglou 16:04 yes
Stephen Bourget 16:04 yes
James Salsman 16:05 "responsive" means automatic re-layout on mobile devices with lots of behind-the-scenes css, by the way
sam MARshall 16:06 hisss
Ahmad Aizuddin Aizat Bin Tajul Arif 16:06 hi everyone :)
Alex Walker 16:06 My way was even less "clean". It used jQuery to add the proper class names to on-page elements.
Mark Johnson 16:07 Someone mentioned a version that's ported the functionality to YUI?
sam MARshall 16:07 is all this stuff accessible? Sounds good for a theme anyhow, nobody has to use it
Dan Poltawski 16:08 ssh, don't mention jquery
Ahmad Aizuddin Aizat Bin Tajul Arif 16:08  :)
Alex Walker 16:09 $("#id_submitbutton).addClass("btn btn-primary");
Alex Walker 16:09 Dirty.
Tim Hunt 16:09 So, the in Dublin, we agree tht some of hte Bootstrap classes were good and semantic, and it would be good to add those to Moodle core. There there woud be a theme/bootstrap that extends theme/base to do the more invasive stuff. Other themes would extend theme/boostrap if they want.
Tim Hunt 16:10 The good semantic classes you would want in core are thinkg like adding a consistent class to all cancel buttons.
James Salsman 16:10 not sure if there's a YUI version of bootstrap, but YUI has a fluid responsive thing at http://yui.github.com/gridbuilder/
Justin Filip 16:10 http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2012/05/29/yui-open-hours-thurs-may-31st/
Alex Walker 16:10 Tim: yes. We discussed doing this with a greater set of renderers?
Helen Foster 16:10 it's Jerome
Tim Hunt 16:10 We already want to make Moodle CSS more consistent. The thought was we could concsistentise on the bootstrap class names.
Gareth J Barnard 16:11 Will Boostrap replace MyMobile then?
Tim Hunt 16:11 Well, alex, theme/bootstrap woudl change the HTML using renderers. To do that, we need more of Moodle to use rendererrs, but we need that anywhy.
Alex Walker 16:11 indeed.
Tim Hunt 16:12 (I am on my second cup of coffee, and I still can't type accurately.)
Tim Hunt 16:12 Hopefully, bootstrap gives us the incentive, and the clear direction, to do a lot of things that needed to be done anyway.
Tim Hunt 16:12 Yes ;-)
Tim Hunt 16:13 I can say somethin onstructive about jquery
Tim Hunt 16:13 constructive
Alex Walker 16:13 Oh, yes. We definitely need greater flexibility in layout, and that comes from renderers.
sam MARshall 16:13 constructive? are you sure? :)
sam MARshall 16:13 yes
Justin Filip 16:13 y
James Salsman 16:13 yes
Andrew Nicols 16:13 We can
Bas Brands 16:13 yes
Alex Walker 16:13 yep
Mark Johnson 16:13 yes
Mary Cooch 16:13 yes
Dan Poltawski 16:13 yep
Gareth J Barnard 16:13 yes
Claire Browne 16:13 yes
Martin Dougiamas 16:13 See https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-15727
Alex Walker 16:14 We've seen that breakage with one particular Twitter block. I seem to remember.
Jason Hardin 16:14 what if i need jquery plugins?
Bas Brands 16:14 Yes I noticed breakage on my "microsoft clippy" for Moodle block too
Jason Hardin 16:15 jquery ui
Alex Walker 16:15 You should just be able to include the plugin, since the base library should already be included. The only difficulty is making sure the versions of jQuery match.
Andrew Nicols 16:15 We'd be looking at using the YUI loader to load jQuery
Alex Walker 16:16 2.0 involves massive changes, apparently.
Mark Johnson 16:16 That sounds about right to me, Tim
Jason Hardin 16:16 you can ge the same collisions with jquery plugins
Andrew Nicols 16:16 We sholud be able to work around many of those collisions by using the YUI loader too
Tim Hunt 16:16 If you know about jquery plugins, please post in that bug.
Andrew Nicols 16:16 The issue with plugins comes with which ones to include ;)
Gareth J Barnard 16:17 I'm going to try Andrews YUI code on MDL-38034 as jQueryMobile has specific jQuery version requirements. Best way to go.
Andrew Nicols 16:17 We can also use the jQuery CDNs, but that won't work for everyone (e.g. thouse on SSL)
Dan Poltawski 16:17 Andrew: there are SSL jquery cdns
Mark Johnson 16:17 Dont include any jquery plugins, surely? just the core lib, Moodle plugins can include hte jquery plugins they need
Dan Poltawski 16:17 the problem is sites with no internet acces..
Andrew Nicols 16:17 true, but that's not necessarily a solution.
Justin Filip 16:17 A / the local copy can be a fallback.
Sam Hemelryk 16:18 Hi everyone, sorry I'm really late
Andrew Nicols 16:18 Plus it's a bit dirty passing your trusted traffic to someone else's CDN
Alex Walker 16:18 A lot of corporate / educational proxies have been known to block external Javascript.
Alex Walker 16:18 For XSS reasons. My college does this.
Justin Filip 16:18 Dan's point is valid, though. Some sites are running in Intranets and have no external Internet acces available to them.
Tim Hunt 16:18 Micahel, Sam H is here.
Tim Hunt 16:19 Do you want ot go back to what we missed
sam MARshall 16:19 don't blame him
Sam Hemelryk 16:19 I'm here
Sam Hemelryk 16:19 I'm guessing no one can hear me yet
Dan Poltawski 16:19 no
Mary Cooch 16:19 no
roc mehra 16:19 Yes
Sam Hemelryk 16:20 Grr don't think my mic is going to work sorry
James Salsman 16:20 is it https://docs.moodle.org/dev/GSOC ?
Dan Poltawski 16:20 https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Projects_for_new_developers
James Salsman 16:21 thanks
Dan Poltawski 16:21 (although you also get good proposals which might not be in the list)
Tim Hunt 16:22 It really dependson how many good aplicatnts, and how many potential mentors.
James Salsman 16:22 after 2nd year Google will give large projects all the slots they ask for, up to about 20 based on attempts at measuring this
Justin Filip 16:22 y
Bas Brands 16:22 y
Mark Johnson 16:22 y
Mary Cooch 16:22 y
Tim Hunt 16:22 Hi sam
Gareth J Barnard 16:22 y
Ted van den Brink 16:22 y
Anthony Borrow 16:22 hi sam
Stephen Bourget 16:22 yes
Dan Poltawski 16:22 hep
Mary Cooch 16:22 yes
sam MARshall 16:22 yeah
Dan Poltawski 16:22 yep
Dan Poltawski 16:23 WE CAN HEAR YOU!
roc mehra 16:23 voice is clear now
Tim Hunt 16:23 Also MUC, if there is anything worth sayig.
Rex Lorenzo 16:23 is there a ticket for either of those items?
Marina Glancy 16:24 MDL-37009
Marina Glancy 16:24 MDL-38147
Dan Poltawski 16:24 https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-31830
Dan Poltawski 16:26 https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Hack-a-thon_2013
Kris Stokking 16:26 Are there any associated docs that provide additional description about the changes end-users will see? Maybe some mockups?
Anthony Borrow 16:26 would the work on course categories and management allow for one course to be in multiple categories?
Marina Glancy 16:26 no
Rex Lorenzo 16:26 The docs updated said it is only for the API doc, but what about user documentation?
Gareth J Barnard 16:27 For plugins Hack-a-thon I had an idea, please see it's discussion page.
Helen Foster 16:27 for dev docs it would be good to have a list of pages needing updating
Justin Filip 16:27 I like that idea.
Bas Brands 16:27 Cool!!
Justin Filip 16:28 (Gareth's idea)
Andrew Nicols 16:28 Hi :)
Bas Brands 16:28 Hack-a-thon = online?
sam MARshall 16:29 yep i'm here
Helen Foster 16:29 Rex, can you think of any missing user docs? (we could only think of docs needing reorganising/improving which is not so nice for new people to start on)
Justin Filip 16:29 y
Bas Brands 16:29 y
Mark Johnson 16:29 y
Ted van den Brink 16:29 yes
Stephen Bourget 16:30 yes
Juan Leyva 16:30 y
Dan Poltawski 16:30 yep
Gareth J Barnard 16:30 yes
Dan Poltawski 16:30 giving presenting now
Tim Hunt 16:30 A very large elephant!
Mark Johnson 16:31 <insert PostGres/elephant joke>
James Salsman 16:33 /me likes SSD cache between RAM and disk, but most DBAs tell me I'm nuts
Dan Poltawski 16:33 but we do use it for robust requirements atm
Justin Filip 16:33 Reporting requires that data
Tim Hunt 16:34 Dan/Justin, read the full spec, or wait a bit.
Dan Poltawski 16:34 https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=221940
Dan Poltawski 16:34 Tim: I have
Mark Nielsen 16:34 https://github.com/Seldaek/monolog - perhaps too low level, but lots and lots of backends for free
Bas Brands 16:35 Perhaps CouchDB would be a nice alternative
Rex Lorenzo 16:35 But the plugin can bulk add the logs at certain moodle cron runs, right?
Tim Hunt 16:35 Ooh! clicking the link works!
Dan Poltawski 16:35 Bas: we can't depden on that though
Dan Poltawski 16:35 (for small sites on shared hosting)
Dan Poltawski 16:36 well done for waking up sam ;-)
sam MARshall 16:36 thanks dan :)
Sam Hemelryk 16:36 Sounds fantastic
Andrew Nicols 16:37 (I'm ready to demo now)
Andrew Nicols 16:37 Yes
Justin Filip 16:37 This looks cool. I'll read through the proposal "tomorow".
Tim Hunt 16:37 So, the issue is, getting the data back from the logs to display in teh Moodle UI, but sam\s spec has ideas about that.
Mark Johnson 16:37 we cant hear you
Dan Poltawski 16:37 we can't hear you Andrew
Martin Dougiamas 16:37 Yes I think a API is possibe to read logs
Andrew Nicols 16:37 Stil?
Dan Poltawski 16:37 still can't hear
Mary Cooch 16:37 no
Andrew Nicols 16:38 Bah
Andrew Nicols 16:38 Just trying to rejoin the audio
Mark Johnson 16:38 y
Dan Poltawski 16:38 yes
Mary Cooch 16:38 yes
Bas Brands 16:38 y
Sam Hemelryk 16:38 y
Ted van den Brink 16:38 y
Tim Hunt 16:38 LOL https://twitter.com/KentBeck/status/306253689184739328
Dan Poltawski 16:40 careful of the sreen refresh lag Andrew
Dan Poltawski 16:40 thanks
sam MARshall 16:40 I think we currently duplicate that in the moodle php calls
sam MARshall 16:40 (the list of modules)
sam MARshall 16:40 in some cases, it's an optional param
Tim Hunt 16:41 sam, not if you do it right ;-)
Tim Hunt 16:41 but you need ot use proper YUI modules, not module.js
sam MARshall 16:41 somebody specifically told me to duplicte it there as it makes loading faster :)
Tim Hunt 16:41 Ah, yes.
Tim Hunt 16:41 That is the point Andrew is making.
Sam Hemelryk 16:41 it does indeed help performance
Dan Poltawski 16:43 I watched the node.js presentation on the front page of the site at the weekend. Its pretty interesting if you are interested in cool things
Dan Poltawski 16:43 (its actually at a php meetup so is well targeted to you guys)
Dan Poltawski 16:44 (someone should make a replacement backend for the chat module daemon in it)
Sam Hemelryk 16:44 That really looks like it tidies things up
Rex Lorenzo 16:44 would this work with jquery and minize that as well if it uses the yui loader?
sam MARshall 16:46 oh I like this logging thing
sam MARshall 16:46 isn't it a nightmare whenever you change it/include it though? Like you have to run this command-line thing... it can't run server-side automatically? :)
Dan Poltawski 16:46 thats the only contraversial part of it, Sam
Sam Hemelryk 16:46 You're able to toggle it to watch right
Sam Hemelryk 16:47 ^ heh andrews just showing that now
Dan Poltawski 16:47 https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-37127
sam MARshall 16:47 I remember I had a little trouble installing this, although it worked in the end
Dan Poltawski 16:48 hurray, we've not got System X, but we've got System Y
sam MARshall 16:48 I guess if there is good documentation on moodle dev then it will be better than at present, don't think there is good/current docs for how to include yui js (maybe there are, i haven't looked lately)
Dan Poltawski 16:49 yep, I agree Sam
Dan Poltawski 16:50 behat?
Dan Poltawski 16:50 You write a step which runs the tests?
sam MARshall 16:51 Does this mean everywhere we include yui javascript in modules will all break when we move to 2.5 or whever this is in? :)
Justin Filip 16:51 Was there a depdency on Shifter for YuiDoc and the unit testing or is that just some extras?
Dan Poltawski 16:51 Sam: as I understand it, we don't need to break things, just add them grually
Dan Poltawski 16:51 right Andrew?
Dan Poltawski 16:51 *gradually
sam MARshall 16:51 dan - great, that's what I was wondering
sam MARshall 16:51 cool
sam MARshall 16:52 OK, that's great :)
Tim Hunt 16:54 I really hope this makes it into 2.5
Sam Hemelryk 16:54 I agree, it would be great to see this land
Andrew Nicols 16:54 Sorry - have flu at the moment
Gareth J Barnard 16:54 shifting module.js files were mentioned, can it work for plugin's?
Andrew Nicols 16:54 Gareth: Yes
Andrew Nicols 16:55 As long as they're in the same format
Gareth J Barnard 16:55 Cool, so I just need a json build file?
Tim Hunt 16:55 Gareth, in your plugin, make a yui subfolder, and putyour code ithere.
Tim Hunt 16:55 There are examples in various places in core.
Andrew Nicols 16:55 It'll be the same structure as core. So yui/src/<name>/js/<name>.js
Tim Hunt 16:55 https://docs.moodle.org/dev/How_to_create_a_YUI_3_module
sam MARshall 16:55 that extra name is super annoying  ;)
Tim Hunt 16:55 (I hope that is up-to-date)
sam MARshall 16:56 like argh, why couldn't it just be in the same folder :) I'll live
Andrew Nicols 16:56 It's not 100% up to date, but it's mostly thre
Gareth J Barnard 16:56 Ta :) - I'm using the standard module.js that's in course formats.
sam MARshall 16:56 module.js is the 'old' way to do it
Andrew Nicols 16:56 sam M: Because you can have assets too
sam MARshall 16:56 yeah I never do though ;)
Brian Merritt 16:57 ios mobile client with android image - very multicultural
Rex Lorenzo 16:57 the mobile app only supports moodle logins, right? no other login integrations?
Brian Merritt 16:58 Any idea what is required to support different course formats?
Mary Cooch 16:58 bye all - got to go & teach some 9 yr olds Microsoft ... #4weekstogo
sam MARshall 16:59 bye mary, have fun indoctrinating :)
Juan Leyva 16:59 Rex, you can create a plugin for overwrite the current auth system
Juan Leyva 16:59 a plugin for the mobile app, I mean
Rex Lorenzo 16:59 Like shibboleth?
Andrew Nicols 16:59 Jerome, can you moveo to one side slightly so we can see what you're doing?
Juan Leyva 17:00 yes, plugins allow you to override any core APU function, so you can override the main auth function
Juan Leyva 17:00 in any case, there is an issue open for add support for this problems in Moodle core, let me find the issue
Dan Poltawski 17:01 https://build.phonegap.com/apps/314601/share
Juan Leyva 17:02 Rex, see https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-36114
Rex Lorenzo 17:02 mobile@moodle.org?
Gareth J Barnard 17:02 Will Moodle Mobile replace MyMobile theme?
Juan Leyva 17:03 Gareth, MoodleMobile will not replace the MyMobile theme, is not the same
sam MARshall 17:03 I assume we still want normal website to work without having to download an app
Rex Lorenzo 17:03 it is like a native app
Andrew Nicols 17:03 Willyou be able to theme it using the admin menu somehow?
Gareth J Barnard 17:03 Thanks :)
Juan Leyva 17:04 MoodleMobile is a native app with a small set of functionalities, mainly for consuming data
Tim Hunt 17:04 sam, I think so. Some people wnat mobile (or responsive) theme. Others want an app, so you can read content offline.
Juan Leyva 17:04 Andrew, there are settings in Moodle admin menu for including a specific CSS file for the app
Juan Leyva 17:05 the native app loads the remote CSS for styling the app on the first user login
Andrew Nicols 17:05 Cool - so we don't *have* to fork to style ;)
Juan Leyva 17:05 nope
Juan Leyva 17:05 that was the idea, the same for lang strings
Juan Leyva 17:05 you can translate the native app strings using your Moodle lang tools
Rex Lorenzo 17:05 first user login? but it does "refresh" every so often?
sam MARshall 17:05 When you release your mobile app to public stores you can look forward to great comments like this one: 'Doesn't do what it claims, no materials, clunky interface, no close/exit button. Developers should be embarrassed, a child could do better.'
Juan Leyva 17:05 yes, it refresh
sam MARshall 17:05  :)
sam MARshall 17:06 note - that comment was NOT about the moodle mobile app
sam MARshall 17:06  :)
Justin Filip 17:06 @Sam, is that just general guidance on the PhoneGap site? =)
sam MARshall 17:06 lol
Dan Poltawski 17:06 https://tracker.moodle.org/secure/RapidBoard.jspa?rapidView=6&quickFilter=19
sam MARshall 17:06 (@Justin - Probably should be!)
Andrew Nicols 17:06 mobile@moodle.org bounces
Tim Hunt 17:07 That was a really full meeting!
Dan Poltawski 17:07 mobilw@moodle.com
Tim Hunt 17:07 Good stuff
Dan Poltawski 17:07 mobile@moodle.com
Brian Merritt 17:07 great
Martin Dougiamas 17:07 main point of the app is to provide offline features, notifications, and features that are good on touch (eg assignment grading)
Brian Merritt 17:07 thanks all
Gareth J Barnard 17:07 Thanks all :)
sam MARshall 17:07 thanks everyone :)
Andrew Nicols 17:07 Thanks all
Nadav Kavalerchik 17:07 Thanks :-)
Martin Dougiamas 17:07 ciao
Phill Miller 17:07 Thanks!
Anthony Borrow 17:07 cheers
Justin Filip 17:07 HEY!
Mark Johnson 17:08 thanks!
Ted van den Brink 17:08 Thanks!
Martin Dougiamas 17:08 go to sleep North Americans
Justin Filip 17:08 *grumble* ;)
sam MARshall 17:08 lol
Justin Filip 17:08 We still love you, Dan!
sam MARshall 17:08 ...incontinence?
Andrew Nicols 17:08 MDL-37127 for the shifter issue. I'll try and do a decent screencast of it to demonstrate things a better
sam MARshall 17:08 right I'm going
sam MARshall 17:08  :)
Justin Filip 17:08 Thanks, everyone. ;)
Sam Hemelryk 17:08 Night everyone
Yiannis Arapoglou 17:08 byee
Yiannis Arapoglou 17:08 thank you