Developer meeting February 2013
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Developer meetings > February 2013 meeting notes
| Time | 07:00 UTC on Tuesday, 26 February 2013 |
| Meeting room | Moodle Dev Meeting Course |
In this meeting we will focus on activities outside Moodle HQ.
Attendees
Aaron Barnes, Adrian Greeve, Ahmad Aizuddin Aizat Bin Tajul Arif, Alex Walker, Amanda Dougherty, Andrew Nicols, Anthony Borrow, Aparup Banerjee, Bas Brands, Brian Merritt, Claire Browne, Dan Poltawski, David Monllao, Davo Smith, Frédéric Massart, Gareth J Barnard, Helen Foster, James Salsman, Jason Fowler, Jason Hardin, Jérôme Mouneyrac, Juan Leyva, Justin Filip, Kris Stokking, Luis de Vasconcel, Marina Glancy, Mark Johnson, Mark Nelson, Mark Nielsen, Martin Dougiamas, Mary Cooch, Michael de Raadt, Nadav Kavalerchik, Petr Skoda, Phill Miller, Rejesh Taneja, Rex Lorenzo, Roc Mehra, Rossiani Wijaya, Sam Hemelryk, Sam Marshall, Simon Coggins, Stephen Bourget, Ted van den Brink, Tim Hunt, Yiannis Arapoglou, Yuliya Bozhko
Outcomes
Invited speakers - Phill Miller, Kris Stokking, Mark Nielsen (Moodlerooms)
- Moodlerooms has investigated the need for Outcomes in relation to American and international requirements.
- Their proposal allows a binary standard to be attached to gradable and other content elements around Moodle. Attempts are captured in the system to determine if outcomes can be recommended as achieved. The system that recommends whether an outcome is achieved is pluggable. Multiple outcomes can be associated with a single piece of content.
- There will be an API to support various types of Moodle plugins. Initially there will be functionality for for Activities, Advanced grading forms and Quiz questions.
- Outcomes will be globally defined. There will be an Association UI to link outcomes to activities. Outcomes will be administered from the admin menus. Awards associated with outcomes will be configurable there.
- The database structure was described. Data will be collected to allow creation of reports.
- The system will need to maintain integrity, even after deletions. It needs to be backwards compatible with the old Outcomes system.
Moodle 2.5 Progress
Plugin installation
- David was unable to talk about incoming Plugin installation progress as he was at a Moot in Germany.
Form simplifications
- See MDL-38012
- Form simplifications have now been integrated into Master.
- Developers need to examine the impact these changes will have on the forms they maintain including the location of form elements, advanced elements and the meaningful titling of sections in forms.
Course listing improvements
- See MDL-36320
- All course listings in moodle (front page, courses page, search courses) will now look consistent and displayed using renderer. A lot of caching work is done in back-end. Also a lot of other hardcoded html from course/lib.php is moved to renderer including function print_section().
Course management improvements
- ISSUE NUMBER NEEDED
- PROGRESS NEEDED
Bootstrap
- See MDL-38016
- The new Bootstrap themes will be responsive to different screen sizes.
- It uses CSS from the Twitter Bootstrap project and can also have some jQuery additions to add functionality based on content.
- This will hopefully be ready for 2.5 with the CSS components and will allow us to recommend this as the default theme for all platforms (including Mobile and Tablet).
Community hub interface
- See MDL-37012
- showed the new block community finder form.
MUC expansion
- See MDL-34224
- MUC is being implemented more widely.
jQuery for add-on plugins
- See MDL-15727
- There are potential conflicts when multiple JQuery versions are used at the same time. If Moodle can manage that, by offering a single version for all plugins that use jQuery in Moodle, we can reduce conflicts.
- It will be a challenge to keep this up-to-date and inform developers about changes.
Release calendar changes
- Major and Minor releases are now in sync. Major releases will happen in May and November.
- For the May release the Code Freeze date will be April 1 and the release date will be May 13.
GSoC for 2013
- We are about to start promoting Moodle's involvement in the GSoC.
- People wishing to mentor a project are asked to finalise the details of the project on the Projects for new developers page.
Hack-a-thon
- Because of the change in the release calendar, the Hack-a-thon has been delayed to June.
- The plan currently is to have tasks for developers (bug fixing), tracker cleaners (bug checking in tracker), doc writers (for Dev docs) and plugin reviewers (in the Plugins Directory).
Logging to disk proposal
Sam Marshall
- Moodle has a lot of log entries, which causes a lot of DB writes. This limits scalability.
- Sam proposes a logger plugin type with normal as DB logging as default. It will then be possible other plugins, such as one to write to file and then be fed into DB later.
YUI: Using Shifter, and chums
Andrew Nicols
- Also see MDL-37127.
- Andrew demonstrated YUI Shifter and the potential benefits of that, including optimising JS code sent with pages.
- There are also some useful documentation and testing additions that we could benefit from.
Mobile App
- Jerome demonstrated the new Mobile App.
- Much of the work has been done by Juan in Spain with Jerome, Barb and Martin.
Meeting chat log
| Dan Poltawski | 14:50 | Michael, can you make me a presenter? |
| Dan Poltawski | 14:50 | So I can try the screen sharing |
| Michael de Raadt | 14:50 | Dan is in charge. |
| Tim Hunt | 14:51 | Good morning |
| Tim Hunt | 14:51 | Or good afternoon/evening |
| Yuliya Bozhko | 14:53 | quite late evening :) |
| Rex Lorenzo | 14:54 | yes |
| Mary Cooch | 14:54 | yes |
| Yuliya Bozhko | 14:54 | yes |
| James Salsman | 14:54 | thanks |
| James Salsman | 14:55 | Michael I don't know whether you can see my chat. I don't want to second-guess Tim, but the suggested plugin points you sent in email today are what I had in mind |
| Dan Poltawski | 14:55 | we can see your chat james |
| James Salsman | 14:55 | oh good |
| Martin Dougiamas | 14:59 | I can't join in fully from the hospital hee so will be lurking only. Carry on. |
| Martin Dougiamas | 15:00 | Did you turn on recording Michael? |
| Phill Miller | 15:01 | I'm having audio problems, I will be right back |
| Bas Brands | 15:01 | should we already be hearing something? |
| Justin Filip | 15:01 | Yes |
| Simon Coggins | 15:01 | Bas, yes - you have to enable audio |
| Simon Coggins | 15:01 | in the top left |
| Simon Coggins | 15:02 | then mute your mic if you have one |
| Davo Smith | 15:02 | I've enabled audio and muted my mic, but no sound |
| Mark Nielsen | 15:02 | https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Outcomes_Technical_Specification |
| Helen Foster | 15:02 | I can't hear anything either |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:02 | I am controlling the mute unmute button here |
| Mary Cooch | 15:02 | yes |
| Yuliya Bozhko | 15:02 | yes |
| Andrew Nicols | 15:02 | yup |
| Stephen Bourget | 15:02 | yes |
| Brian Merritt | 15:02 | great |
| Bas Brands | 15:02 | ah yes, |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:02 | (can't talk and participate at the same time) |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:03 | I mean, press the mute button and unbmute button |
| Phill Miller | 15:04 | Nobody seems to be able to hear me |
| Rex Lorenzo | 15:04 | https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Outcomes_Technical_Specification |
| Andrew Nicols | 15:05 | much better desktop sharing size - thanks :) |
| James Salsman | 15:05 | yes |
| James Salsman | 15:05 | yes |
| Bas Brands | 15:05 | yes |
| Stephen Bourget | 15:05 | yes |
| Yiannis Arapoglou | 15:05 | yes |
| Rex Lorenzo | 15:05 | Something cut off |
| Phill Miller | 15:05 | Seems like we are all good |
| Mark Johnson | 15:06 | Hello! |
| Brian Merritt | 15:06 | hiya |
| Jason Hardin | 15:06 | Hello |
| Phill Miller | 15:06 | United States |
| Brian Merritt | 15:06 | Whitstable, England |
| Rex Lorenzo | 15:06 | Hello, from Los Angeles, CA, USA |
| Simon Coggins | 15:06 | Hi everyone from Wellington, NZ |
| James Salsman | 15:06 | hi I'm in Colorado |
| Yuliya Bozhko | 15:06 | Hi from New zealand |
| Kris Stokking | 15:06 | Hi from Baltimore, MD USA |
| Mark Johnson | 15:06 | Oxford, UK |
| Mary Cooch | 15:06 | Hello from Preston UK |
| Yiannis Arapoglou | 15:06 | Hello, Greece! |
| Bas Brands | 15:06 | Netherlands - Arnhem, Europe |
| Ted van den Brink | 15:06 | Hello from the Netherlands! |
| Jason Hardin | 15:06 | Mckinleyville CA USA |
| sam MARshall | 15:06 | hello :) sam marshall from the Open University, in lovely milton keynes, uk |
| Stephen Bourget | 15:06 | Hi from New Hampshire USA |
| Mark Nielsen | 15:06 | Hello, Seattle WA US |
| Tim Hunt | 15:06 | Tim in a cold grey Milton Keynes, UK |
| Andrew Nicols | 15:06 | Andrew Nicols, Lancaster University, UK, Europe, the World |
| Justin Filip | 15:06 | Waterloo, ON Canada. |
| Anthony Borrow | 15:06 | Enjoying some ice cream to make the meeting a little sweeter from Albuquerque, NM |
| Justin Filip | 15:07 | (currently regretting sleeping for a bit before joining this meeting right now) |
| Davo Smith | 15:07 | Can everyone else hear? |
| Helen Foster | 15:07 | no |
| Davo Smith | 15:07 | I'm getting no sound at all |
| Ted van den Brink | 15:07 | yes i have sound |
| Bas Brands | 15:08 | click the button top left -> click join audio |
| Alex Walker | 15:08 | I have sound too. Hello, by the way. |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:08 | micael says, can you hear us |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:08 | (in audio form) |
| Davo Smith | 15:08 | I've clicked 'join audio' many times |
| Bas Brands | 15:08 | click harder :) |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:08 | (I assume some people can hear us:) |
| Claire Browne | 15:08 | Yes |
| Helen Foster | 15:08 | I can hear now |
| Davo Smith | 15:08 | Ahhh - I clicked again to disable my microphone - working now |
| Mary Cooch | 15:09 | good! |
| Simon Coggins | 15:09 | Davo, someone suggested leaving the room and coming back in to fix audio issues |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:09 | Hi Phil! |
| Martin Dougiamas | 15:09 | I'm he lurking only |
| Gareth J Barnard | 15:09 | Morning :) |
| Martin Dougiamas | 15:09 | I'm here lurking only (with much lag) |
| Martin Dougiamas | 15:11 | This is a crazy hour for the US, thanks guys for being up!! |
| Anthony Borrow | 15:11 | helpful for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcome-based_education |
| Anthony Borrow | 15:13 | here in the US, I envision the ability to tie outcomes into specific activities will help demonstrate achievement of things like Common Core standards - http://www.corestandards.org/ |
| Tim Hunt | 15:13 | Achieved / Not achieved is really just a two-item scale. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:13 | One way to look at this is to say "do we want to hard-code one particular scale?" |
| Tim Hunt | 15:14 | Also, if you think it is possible to say difinitively that has student has / has not achieved an outcome, then you have probalby never done any teaching ;-) |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:14 | Mark: can you zoom the browser text a bit? (We can't easily read it) |
| Phill Miller | 15:15 | Tim - It's a little more nuanced than just achieved/not achieved... |
| Claire Browne | 15:15 | :) |
| Tim Hunt | 15:15 | Phill, I can only go by what Kris said. |
| Phill Miller | 15:15 | There are many levels of progress towards a competency or outcome, but in the end, you either achieve it or not |
| Phill Miller | 15:15 | Understood :) |
| Phill Miller | 15:16 | The reports are used to show current progress and levels of achievement, up until achievement |
| Anthony Borrow | 15:17 | Tim - typically these reports are for administrators/districts/etc - teachers understand that students learning may not correspond to what the reports say |
| Justin Filip | 15:17 | This looks similar (but much more fleshed out and pluggable) to what we've done with outcomes in the past. |
| Phill Miller | 15:18 | @Justin - Does that mean that you already have all of the code written? |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:18 | Mark: the other mark asks if you can zoom in one more time |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:18 | mark says he'll get his eyes tested next week |
| Justin Filip | 15:18 | We never ended up porting to to Moodle 2 but it's in our Github account for 1.9, yeah. |
| Rex Lorenzo | 15:18 | Can this be used for ABET accreditation? Or WASC (In US) |
| Phill Miller | 15:18 | @Justin - We'd love to take a look. |
| roc mehra | 15:19 | Hi All |
| Phill Miller | 15:19 | @Rex - Yes, parts of this can be used for ABET and WASC. it will not have everything needed, but it would be a solid foundation |
| Phill Miller | 15:20 | If it is rolled out in a comprehensive way, it would be a strong foundation for accreditation |
| Justin Filip | 15:20 | Errr... maybe it's not in our Github account. =/ It can be. But I'm nowhere near competent enough at 2am to get that done right now. I'm noting to get what we've got for 1.9 up there "tomorrow". =) |
| Phill Miller | 15:21 | @ Justin - No worries. I'm groggy myself. My wife was not too excited when my alarm went off at 1:30 AM. |
| sam MARshall | 15:23 | yep |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:23 | yep |
| Justin Filip | 15:23 | Yes |
| Mark Johnson | 15:23 | yes |
| Stephen Bourget | 15:23 | yes |
| Rex Lorenzo | 15:23 | yes |
| Tim Hunt | 15:24 | Where will they be? |
| Kris Stokking | 15:25 | Sorry Tim - missed the context of "they". Can you clarify? |
| Anthony Borrow | 15:26 | seems a little counter-intutive that they are managed under grades>outcomes but not visible in the gradebook |
| Tim Hunt | 15:26 | That was in the context of "They will not be in the gradebook" |
| sam MARshall | 15:26 | Tim, there was a list of tables at top |
| Tim Hunt | 15:26 | The answer may be coming. |
| sam MARshall | 15:26 | I assume they go in those tables :) |
| Tim Hunt | 15:26 | sam, I am asking aobut the UI. |
| Mark Nielsen | 15:26 | I got muted :) |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:27 | /me slaps michael |
| sam MARshall | 15:27 | lol |
| Phill Miller | 15:27 | @Tim - In the UI, they would be linked from the OUtcomes link in the Settings Block. We have some feedback that we may want to have some UI relationship with the Gradebook, but I need to do some user testing of that idea. |
| Michael de Raadt | 15:27 | Sorry, I had to re-log in. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:28 | Phil, that makes sense. Thanks. |
| Phill Miller | 15:28 | In the original spec, Outcomes had its own page, which makes sense because there is a lot of data to display, but we might want to roll some of that into a summary report in the GB |
| Tim Hunt | 15:29 | I think it is OK for the outcomes system to be separate from the gradebook system, but with natural links in the UI. |
| Phill Miller | 15:30 | nothing too major in the chat Mark |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:30 | (Damyon) If advanced grading criteria have a numerical grade - how does that map to pass/fail for outcomes |
| Tim Hunt | 15:31 | Hmm. Elsewhere in Moodle idnumber is not globally unique. It is just locally unique - used for data integration with other institutions, but often quite meaningful like B747-13F |
| Tim Hunt | 15:31 | If you want a GUID, call it a different name. |
| Phill Miller | 15:32 | @Damyon - It would be a piece of data that can be used, either by a recommendation engine or by the instructor to determine whether they had achieved the outcome or not. |
| Andrew Nicols | 15:32 | idnumber not even always totally unique. In groups and groupings it's only unique within that course |
| Tim Hunt | 15:32 | Exactly. |
| Kris Stokking | 15:32 | @Damyon - this goes into the recommendation engine. You can set different thresholds that it can use to determine the recommendation, but ultimately the instructor makes the call. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:32 | It is as unique as is useful. |
| sam MARshall | 15:32 | I think it would be ok to treat idnumberas something to identifiy a backup/restore probably |
| Tim Hunt | 15:33 | sam, I think it is good to have somethin like that, but it is not an idnumberin the Moodle sense |
| sam MARshall | 15:33 | well it could be if you can type it? I don't think moodle ever defines what idnumber is really, it's just if you want to store some data on stuff |
| Phill Miller | 15:33 | We heard from faculty that we talked to that they would often have multiple activities mapped to outcomes, and they want to use advanced grading activities as well as quizzes, etc. to make sure that a student has achieved it. |
| sam MARshall | 15:34 | if it's auto-generated, i agree the field should be called something else |
| Kris Stokking | 15:34 | I think that idnumber suffers from inconsistency. We had actually renamed it to idnumber from GUID based on developer feedback... :) |
| sam MARshall | 15:34 | :) |
| Tim Hunt | 15:34 | Kris, then you asked the wrong developers ;-) |
| Phill Miller | 15:35 | On global uniqueness, the goal is for us to be able to take a Moodle backup, with content mapped to Outcomes, from Moodle to Moodle, and the mappings should live on. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:36 | metadata in moodle is a pandora's box. For now, you are probably wise to do your own thing. In future, if a super, global medatada system gets added to Moodle, we can migrate your data. |
| sam MARshall | 15:36 | Regarding those names in the meta table - is it ok to use English strings for the 'name' field really? Or should they be some kind of lower-case word with a lang string for it, like 'educationlevel' instead of 'Education level' |
| Tim Hunt | 15:36 | Should probably add a contextid column to outcome_content. |
| Kris Stokking | 15:37 | @Tim: Regarding the contextid, we're almost there... :) |
| Tim Hunt | 15:37 | I think having a separate table for that is worse. |
| sam MARshall | 15:38 | so outcome_mod_content_map is sort of like a cache of data that is really mastered in other palces (like the quiz's tables).. .hmm |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:39 | (Jerome) Will this support Web services? |
| Tim Hunt | 15:39 | In the quiz case, the quiz mod instance will already have outcomes mapped, as well as the questions having outcomes mapped. |
| Kris Stokking | 15:39 | I wouldn't think of it as a cache. It's to handle a specific use case when outcomes can be assigned to content outside of the context of the course (i.e. to a question in a question bank outside the course). |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:39 | (Jerome) you will need ws for sharing outcome ne==between site |
| Tim Hunt | 15:40 | So, outcomes attemt mapps to outcome_content, not outcomes_content_map? |
| sam MARshall | 15:41 | Kris - Maybe I misunderstood, I thought that information can be obtained from existing database tables - for instance, you can find out from quiz/question tables which questions are included in the quiz, it's obviously compiicated and item-specific but |
| Kris Stokking | 15:41 | Once the content is brought into the context of the course (i.e. a question from the example above is used in a specific quiz), a record is created in outcome_mod_content_map to relate the outcomecontent with the course module. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:42 | I am going to have to look at this schema in my own time, but it does not look obviously right ot me yet. |
| Justin Filip | 15:42 | If you need a historal record of what the student at that time to achieve their outcomes/expectations it makes sense. If the activities / questions change over time you can't map old outcome results to the current data. |
| sam MARshall | 15:42 | Ah, I see |
| Phill Miller | 15:42 | Additionally, we are looking at how the outcomes that have been achieved relate to the Open Badges project |
| Justin Filip | 15:42 | ^what the student did at that time |
| Tim Hunt | 15:43 | I am not convienced that gradebook is a good precident there. I woudl just put it all in top-level outcome/ folder, with an outcome/lib. |
| Justin Filip | 15:44 | ? /admin/tool/outcome/ |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:44 | Will this be integrated along with open badges, so that say for example, an award could be a badge someone coul show off. |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:44 | (mark^) |
| Kris Stokking | 15:44 | @Jerome: Web services should be supported in the initial version. Admittedly, we need to add that to the docs. |
| Phill Miller | 15:45 | @Dan - That's the idea. We aren't including that in this development cycle necessarily, but we would like to get badges integration done shortly. We're watching that project closely |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:45 | (Mark) Cool |
| Kris Stokking | 15:46 | @Mark: We've posted in the discussion about Open Badges about how they could potentially use Outcomes to achieve a Badge. The reverse can't apply because the badges system can't feed into anything that the recommendation engine can use. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:46 | For that sort of linking, you need a callback funcion in the plugin. |
| sam MARshall | 15:47 | Isn't that backwards - shouldn't you be ... what Tim said... rather than adding a plugin type to mediate between the plugin and outcomes |
| Tim Hunt | 15:47 | Given and outcome_thing, tell me the URL. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:47 | Except that, for qtypes, there is no need for difffernt mappings fordiffenret types. It will be generic to any qtype. |
| Michael de Raadt | 15:47 | I don't want to rush you guys, but it would be good to have time for other topics. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:47 | For mod,s, it is the other way around. |
| Kris Stokking | 15:48 | @MdR: I thought you set this meeting for 3 hours... you mean that wasn't just for us? :) |
| Tim Hunt | 15:48 | For qtypes, we have a single question/format plugin type, that does both import and export. |
| sam MARshall | 15:48 | import/export plugins sound good |
| Tim Hunt | 15:48 | Not sure if that is really better though. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:48 | Since most only do eitherimport or export! |
| Tim Hunt | 15:48 | Gradebook does hem separately |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:53 | https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Outcomes_Technical_Specification |
| Phill Miller | 15:53 | PLease review everyone and get us feedback quickly! We are ready to get started on this as soon as possible. |
| Dan Poltawski | 15:53 | https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=220143 |
| Tim Hunt | 15:53 | There are things there which I would like to discuss. |
| sam MARshall | 15:54 | Maybe use the forum? I'll post something, I think callbacks are more sense than a plugin-linking-plugin |
| Tim Hunt | 15:54 | I don't think you can just say "Here is this huge technical spec that we have dumpen on the world" You have 10 seconds to comment. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:54 | You have been thinking about this for weeks. Give us a chance to catch up. |
| sam MARshall | 15:54 | yes it looks good :) |
| Tim Hunt | 15:55 | It looks 90% good. Some of hte 10% worries me a lot. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:55 | A mistake now could be very expensive for future Moodle development. |
| Tim Hunt | 15:55 | Kris / Mark, could we have a chat on Skype some time? |
| Phill Miller | 15:55 | @Tim - 20 seconds better? Just kidding. We have been thinking about this for months. Love feedback, but I would ask for it to happen relatively quickly. We are estimating and planning the work right now. |
| Kris Stokking | 15:56 | Absolutely Tim - kstokking_moodlerooms if you don't have it. Anyone is welcome to hit me up for questions. |
| sam MARshall | 15:57 | The automatic collapse is kind of annoying me :) I think it probably gets better as you use it though |
| Tim Hunt | 15:57 | Possibly Thurs/Fri this week. I have a busy week. |
| Andrew Nicols | 15:57 | Don't think so |
| Jason Hardin | 15:58 | any talk about moving to wards important fields? |
| Jason Hardin | 15:58 | so that fields that are must have are avaialbel and then expand other fields |
| Andrew Nicols | 15:58 | Dan - can you demonstrate the show more/show less ? |
| Tim Hunt | 15:58 | Ideas for improvig this shortforms stuff, like 'expand all', add your ideas to https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-38012 |
| Jason Hardin | 15:58 | so that the inital form is set to be just what 90% of peopel use 90% of the time |
| Andrew Nicols | 15:59 | Advanced fields would toggle all advanced fields on the whole form across all sections; show more/show less shows them within a section instead |
| Tim Hunt | 15:59 | We expect that with shortforms, we will have fewer advanced fields overall. |
| Justin Filip | 15:59 | If we try a plugin in master and see something funky, should be provide feedback directly on MDL-38012 ? |
| Tim Hunt | 15:59 | But there were still some places where they where a good idea, so we kept the idea. |
| Helen Foster | 15:59 | is anyone reviewing all activity and resource setting for consistency? |
| Anthony Borrow | 15:59 | is anyone focusing specifically on usability, UI, design? |
| Tim Hunt | 15:59 | LOL Anthony |
| Andrew Nicols | 15:59 | Justin: Yup - that would be good. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:00 | Justin, probalby separate bug in teh appropriate place for each plugin tha thas issues. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:00 | Then link it to 38012 |
| Justin Filip | 16:00 | Fair enough. Thanks, guys. |
| Marina Glancy | 16:01 | there are a lot of functions in course lib that are moved to renderer |
| Tim Hunt | 16:01 | Michael, It is probably OK if you just go quickly through the list. It ishelpful enough for you just to list what is on the roadmap. Then if ypeople want ot know more, they can go and find out |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:01 | yup - we can hear you just about |
| Justin Filip | 16:01 | Really quiet |
| Marina Glancy | 16:02 | sorry, my mic is not working |
| Marina Glancy | 16:02 | https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-36320 |
| Anthony Borrow | 16:02 | I do not see Survey 2 on the list - this seems to be something that keeps getting pushed back |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:02 | Bas Brands |
| Tim Hunt | 16:02 | Andrew N is here, I think. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:02 | OR Bas |
| Bas Brands | 16:03 | Yes :) |
| sam MARshall | 16:03 | I hope somebody's about to tell us what bootstrap is :) |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:03 | Bas would be much better to talk about it than me ;) |
| Justin Filip | 16:03 | It got a lot of mention in Vancouver at the Canada Moot the week before mootie as well. |
| Alex Walker | 16:03 | We've got Bootstrap integrated into our Moodle theme, too. |
| Bas Brands | 16:03 | Yes I could do a short intro |
| Tim Hunt | 16:03 | Do either of them have acess to the Mic? |
| sam MARshall | 16:04 | yep |
| Mark Johnson | 16:04 | yep |
| Justin Filip | 16:04 | y |
| Ted van den Brink | 16:04 | yes |
| Davo Smith | 16:04 | yes |
| Mary Cooch | 16:04 | loud and clear |
| Alex Walker | 16:04 | yep |
| Yiannis Arapoglou | 16:04 | yes |
| Stephen Bourget | 16:04 | yes |
| James Salsman | 16:05 | "responsive" means automatic re-layout on mobile devices with lots of behind-the-scenes css, by the way |
| sam MARshall | 16:06 | hisss |
| Ahmad Aizuddin Aizat Bin Tajul Arif | 16:06 | hi everyone :) |
| Alex Walker | 16:06 | My way was even less "clean". It used jQuery to add the proper class names to on-page elements. |
| Mark Johnson | 16:07 | Someone mentioned a version that's ported the functionality to YUI? |
| sam MARshall | 16:07 | is all this stuff accessible? Sounds good for a theme anyhow, nobody has to use it |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:08 | ssh, don't mention jquery |
| Ahmad Aizuddin Aizat Bin Tajul Arif | 16:08 | :) |
| Alex Walker | 16:09 | $("#id_submitbutton).addClass("btn btn-primary"); |
| Alex Walker | 16:09 | Dirty. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:09 | So, the in Dublin, we agree tht some of hte Bootstrap classes were good and semantic, and it would be good to add those to Moodle core. There there woud be a theme/bootstrap that extends theme/base to do the more invasive stuff. Other themes would extend theme/boostrap if they want. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:10 | The good semantic classes you would want in core are thinkg like adding a consistent class to all cancel buttons. |
| James Salsman | 16:10 | not sure if there's a YUI version of bootstrap, but YUI has a fluid responsive thing at http://yui.github.com/gridbuilder/ |
| Justin Filip | 16:10 | http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2012/05/29/yui-open-hours-thurs-may-31st/ |
| Alex Walker | 16:10 | Tim: yes. We discussed doing this with a greater set of renderers? |
| Helen Foster | 16:10 | it's Jerome |
| Tim Hunt | 16:10 | We already want to make Moodle CSS more consistent. The thought was we could concsistentise on the bootstrap class names. |
| Gareth J Barnard | 16:11 | Will Boostrap replace MyMobile then? |
| Tim Hunt | 16:11 | Well, alex, theme/bootstrap woudl change the HTML using renderers. To do that, we need more of Moodle to use rendererrs, but we need that anywhy. |
| Alex Walker | 16:11 | indeed. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:12 | (I am on my second cup of coffee, and I still can't type accurately.) |
| Tim Hunt | 16:12 | Hopefully, bootstrap gives us the incentive, and the clear direction, to do a lot of things that needed to be done anyway. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:12 | Yes ;-) |
| Tim Hunt | 16:13 | I can say somethin onstructive about jquery |
| Tim Hunt | 16:13 | constructive |
| Alex Walker | 16:13 | Oh, yes. We definitely need greater flexibility in layout, and that comes from renderers. |
| sam MARshall | 16:13 | constructive? are you sure? :) |
| sam MARshall | 16:13 | yes |
| Justin Filip | 16:13 | y |
| James Salsman | 16:13 | yes |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:13 | We can |
| Bas Brands | 16:13 | yes |
| Alex Walker | 16:13 | yep |
| Mark Johnson | 16:13 | yes |
| Mary Cooch | 16:13 | yes |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:13 | yep |
| Gareth J Barnard | 16:13 | yes |
| Claire Browne | 16:13 | yes |
| Martin Dougiamas | 16:13 | See https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-15727 |
| Alex Walker | 16:14 | We've seen that breakage with one particular Twitter block. I seem to remember. |
| Jason Hardin | 16:14 | what if i need jquery plugins? |
| Bas Brands | 16:14 | Yes I noticed breakage on my "microsoft clippy" for Moodle block too |
| Jason Hardin | 16:15 | jquery ui |
| Alex Walker | 16:15 | You should just be able to include the plugin, since the base library should already be included. The only difficulty is making sure the versions of jQuery match. |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:15 | We'd be looking at using the YUI loader to load jQuery |
| Alex Walker | 16:16 | 2.0 involves massive changes, apparently. |
| Mark Johnson | 16:16 | That sounds about right to me, Tim |
| Jason Hardin | 16:16 | you can ge the same collisions with jquery plugins |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:16 | We sholud be able to work around many of those collisions by using the YUI loader too |
| Tim Hunt | 16:16 | If you know about jquery plugins, please post in that bug. |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:16 | The issue with plugins comes with which ones to include ;) |
| Gareth J Barnard | 16:17 | I'm going to try Andrews YUI code on MDL-38034 as jQueryMobile has specific jQuery version requirements. Best way to go. |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:17 | We can also use the jQuery CDNs, but that won't work for everyone (e.g. thouse on SSL) |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:17 | Andrew: there are SSL jquery cdns |
| Mark Johnson | 16:17 | Dont include any jquery plugins, surely? just the core lib, Moodle plugins can include hte jquery plugins they need |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:17 | the problem is sites with no internet acces.. |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:17 | true, but that's not necessarily a solution. |
| Justin Filip | 16:17 | A / the local copy can be a fallback. |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:18 | Hi everyone, sorry I'm really late |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:18 | Plus it's a bit dirty passing your trusted traffic to someone else's CDN |
| Alex Walker | 16:18 | A lot of corporate / educational proxies have been known to block external Javascript. |
| Alex Walker | 16:18 | For XSS reasons. My college does this. |
| Justin Filip | 16:18 | Dan's point is valid, though. Some sites are running in Intranets and have no external Internet acces available to them. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:18 | Micahel, Sam H is here. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:19 | Do you want ot go back to what we missed |
| sam MARshall | 16:19 | don't blame him |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:19 | I'm here |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:19 | I'm guessing no one can hear me yet |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:19 | no |
| Mary Cooch | 16:19 | no |
| roc mehra | 16:19 | Yes |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:20 | Grr don't think my mic is going to work sorry |
| James Salsman | 16:20 | is it https://docs.moodle.org/dev/GSOC ? |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:20 | https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Projects_for_new_developers |
| James Salsman | 16:21 | thanks |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:21 | (although you also get good proposals which might not be in the list) |
| Tim Hunt | 16:22 | It really dependson how many good aplicatnts, and how many potential mentors. |
| James Salsman | 16:22 | after 2nd year Google will give large projects all the slots they ask for, up to about 20 based on attempts at measuring this |
| Justin Filip | 16:22 | y |
| Bas Brands | 16:22 | y |
| Mark Johnson | 16:22 | y |
| Mary Cooch | 16:22 | y |
| Tim Hunt | 16:22 | Hi sam |
| Gareth J Barnard | 16:22 | y |
| Ted van den Brink | 16:22 | y |
| Anthony Borrow | 16:22 | hi sam |
| Stephen Bourget | 16:22 | yes |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:22 | hep |
| Mary Cooch | 16:22 | yes |
| sam MARshall | 16:22 | yeah |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:22 | yep |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:23 | WE CAN HEAR YOU! |
| roc mehra | 16:23 | voice is clear now |
| Tim Hunt | 16:23 | Also MUC, if there is anything worth sayig. |
| Rex Lorenzo | 16:23 | is there a ticket for either of those items? |
| Marina Glancy | 16:24 | MDL-37009 |
| Marina Glancy | 16:24 | MDL-38147 |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:24 | https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-31830 |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:26 | https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Hack-a-thon_2013 |
| Kris Stokking | 16:26 | Are there any associated docs that provide additional description about the changes end-users will see? Maybe some mockups? |
| Anthony Borrow | 16:26 | would the work on course categories and management allow for one course to be in multiple categories? |
| Marina Glancy | 16:26 | no |
| Rex Lorenzo | 16:26 | The docs updated said it is only for the API doc, but what about user documentation? |
| Gareth J Barnard | 16:27 | For plugins Hack-a-thon I had an idea, please see it's discussion page. |
| Helen Foster | 16:27 | for dev docs it would be good to have a list of pages needing updating |
| Justin Filip | 16:27 | I like that idea. |
| Bas Brands | 16:27 | Cool!! |
| Justin Filip | 16:28 | (Gareth's idea) |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:28 | Hi :) |
| Bas Brands | 16:28 | Hack-a-thon = online? |
| sam MARshall | 16:29 | yep i'm here |
| Helen Foster | 16:29 | Rex, can you think of any missing user docs? (we could only think of docs needing reorganising/improving which is not so nice for new people to start on) |
| Justin Filip | 16:29 | y |
| Bas Brands | 16:29 | y |
| Mark Johnson | 16:29 | y |
| Ted van den Brink | 16:29 | yes |
| Stephen Bourget | 16:30 | yes |
| Juan Leyva | 16:30 | y |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:30 | yep |
| Gareth J Barnard | 16:30 | yes |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:30 | giving presenting now |
| Tim Hunt | 16:30 | A very large elephant! |
| Mark Johnson | 16:31 | <insert PostGres/elephant joke> |
| James Salsman | 16:33 | /me likes SSD cache between RAM and disk, but most DBAs tell me I'm nuts |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:33 | but we do use it for robust requirements atm |
| Justin Filip | 16:33 | Reporting requires that data |
| Tim Hunt | 16:34 | Dan/Justin, read the full spec, or wait a bit. |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:34 | https://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=221940 |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:34 | Tim: I have |
| Mark Nielsen | 16:34 | https://github.com/Seldaek/monolog - perhaps too low level, but lots and lots of backends for free |
| Bas Brands | 16:35 | Perhaps CouchDB would be a nice alternative |
| Rex Lorenzo | 16:35 | But the plugin can bulk add the logs at certain moodle cron runs, right? |
| Tim Hunt | 16:35 | Ooh! clicking the link works! |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:35 | Bas: we can't depden on that though |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:35 | (for small sites on shared hosting) |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:36 | well done for waking up sam ;-) |
| sam MARshall | 16:36 | thanks dan :) |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:36 | Sounds fantastic |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:37 | (I'm ready to demo now) |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:37 | Yes |
| Justin Filip | 16:37 | This looks cool. I'll read through the proposal "tomorow". |
| Tim Hunt | 16:37 | So, the issue is, getting the data back from the logs to display in teh Moodle UI, but sam\s spec has ideas about that. |
| Mark Johnson | 16:37 | we cant hear you |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:37 | we can't hear you Andrew |
| Martin Dougiamas | 16:37 | Yes I think a API is possibe to read logs |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:37 | Stil? |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:37 | still can't hear |
| Mary Cooch | 16:37 | no |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:38 | Bah |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:38 | Just trying to rejoin the audio |
| Mark Johnson | 16:38 | y |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:38 | yes |
| Mary Cooch | 16:38 | yes |
| Bas Brands | 16:38 | y |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:38 | y |
| Ted van den Brink | 16:38 | y |
| Tim Hunt | 16:38 | LOL https://twitter.com/KentBeck/status/306253689184739328 |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:40 | careful of the sreen refresh lag Andrew |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:40 | thanks |
| sam MARshall | 16:40 | I think we currently duplicate that in the moodle php calls |
| sam MARshall | 16:40 | (the list of modules) |
| sam MARshall | 16:40 | in some cases, it's an optional param |
| Tim Hunt | 16:41 | sam, not if you do it right ;-) |
| Tim Hunt | 16:41 | but you need ot use proper YUI modules, not module.js |
| sam MARshall | 16:41 | somebody specifically told me to duplicte it there as it makes loading faster :) |
| Tim Hunt | 16:41 | Ah, yes. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:41 | That is the point Andrew is making. |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:41 | it does indeed help performance |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:43 | I watched the node.js presentation on the front page of the site at the weekend. Its pretty interesting if you are interested in cool things |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:43 | (its actually at a php meetup so is well targeted to you guys) |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:44 | (someone should make a replacement backend for the chat module daemon in it) |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:44 | That really looks like it tidies things up |
| Rex Lorenzo | 16:44 | would this work with jquery and minize that as well if it uses the yui loader? |
| sam MARshall | 16:46 | oh I like this logging thing |
| sam MARshall | 16:46 | isn't it a nightmare whenever you change it/include it though? Like you have to run this command-line thing... it can't run server-side automatically? :) |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:46 | thats the only contraversial part of it, Sam |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:46 | You're able to toggle it to watch right |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:47 | ^ heh andrews just showing that now |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:47 | https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-37127 |
| sam MARshall | 16:47 | I remember I had a little trouble installing this, although it worked in the end |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:48 | hurray, we've not got System X, but we've got System Y |
| sam MARshall | 16:48 | I guess if there is good documentation on moodle dev then it will be better than at present, don't think there is good/current docs for how to include yui js (maybe there are, i haven't looked lately) |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:49 | yep, I agree Sam |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:50 | behat? |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:50 | You write a step which runs the tests? |
| sam MARshall | 16:51 | Does this mean everywhere we include yui javascript in modules will all break when we move to 2.5 or whever this is in? :) |
| Justin Filip | 16:51 | Was there a depdency on Shifter for YuiDoc and the unit testing or is that just some extras? |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:51 | Sam: as I understand it, we don't need to break things, just add them grually |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:51 | right Andrew? |
| Dan Poltawski | 16:51 | *gradually |
| sam MARshall | 16:51 | dan - great, that's what I was wondering |
| sam MARshall | 16:51 | cool |
| sam MARshall | 16:52 | OK, that's great :) |
| Tim Hunt | 16:54 | I really hope this makes it into 2.5 |
| Sam Hemelryk | 16:54 | I agree, it would be great to see this land |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:54 | Sorry - have flu at the moment |
| Gareth J Barnard | 16:54 | shifting module.js files were mentioned, can it work for plugin's? |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:54 | Gareth: Yes |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:55 | As long as they're in the same format |
| Gareth J Barnard | 16:55 | Cool, so I just need a json build file? |
| Tim Hunt | 16:55 | Gareth, in your plugin, make a yui subfolder, and putyour code ithere. |
| Tim Hunt | 16:55 | There are examples in various places in core. |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:55 | It'll be the same structure as core. So yui/src/<name>/js/<name>.js |
| Tim Hunt | 16:55 | https://docs.moodle.org/dev/How_to_create_a_YUI_3_module |
| sam MARshall | 16:55 | that extra name is super annoying ;) |
| Tim Hunt | 16:55 | (I hope that is up-to-date) |
| sam MARshall | 16:56 | like argh, why couldn't it just be in the same folder :) I'll live |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:56 | It's not 100% up to date, but it's mostly thre |
| Gareth J Barnard | 16:56 | Ta :) - I'm using the standard module.js that's in course formats. |
| sam MARshall | 16:56 | module.js is the 'old' way to do it |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:56 | sam M: Because you can have assets too |
| sam MARshall | 16:56 | yeah I never do though ;) |
| Brian Merritt | 16:57 | ios mobile client with android image - very multicultural |
| Rex Lorenzo | 16:57 | the mobile app only supports moodle logins, right? no other login integrations? |
| Brian Merritt | 16:58 | Any idea what is required to support different course formats? |
| Mary Cooch | 16:58 | bye all - got to go & teach some 9 yr olds Microsoft ... #4weekstogo |
| sam MARshall | 16:59 | bye mary, have fun indoctrinating :) |
| Juan Leyva | 16:59 | Rex, you can create a plugin for overwrite the current auth system |
| Juan Leyva | 16:59 | a plugin for the mobile app, I mean |
| Rex Lorenzo | 16:59 | Like shibboleth? |
| Andrew Nicols | 16:59 | Jerome, can you moveo to one side slightly so we can see what you're doing? |
| Juan Leyva | 17:00 | yes, plugins allow you to override any core APU function, so you can override the main auth function |
| Juan Leyva | 17:00 | in any case, there is an issue open for add support for this problems in Moodle core, let me find the issue |
| Dan Poltawski | 17:01 | https://build.phonegap.com/apps/314601/share |
| Juan Leyva | 17:02 | Rex, see https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-36114 |
| Rex Lorenzo | 17:02 | mobile@moodle.org? |
| Gareth J Barnard | 17:02 | Will Moodle Mobile replace MyMobile theme? |
| Juan Leyva | 17:03 | Gareth, MoodleMobile will not replace the MyMobile theme, is not the same |
| sam MARshall | 17:03 | I assume we still want normal website to work without having to download an app |
| Rex Lorenzo | 17:03 | it is like a native app |
| Andrew Nicols | 17:03 | Willyou be able to theme it using the admin menu somehow? |
| Gareth J Barnard | 17:03 | Thanks :) |
| Juan Leyva | 17:04 | MoodleMobile is a native app with a small set of functionalities, mainly for consuming data |
| Tim Hunt | 17:04 | sam, I think so. Some people wnat mobile (or responsive) theme. Others want an app, so you can read content offline. |
| Juan Leyva | 17:04 | Andrew, there are settings in Moodle admin menu for including a specific CSS file for the app |
| Juan Leyva | 17:05 | the native app loads the remote CSS for styling the app on the first user login |
| Andrew Nicols | 17:05 | Cool - so we don't *have* to fork to style ;) |
| Juan Leyva | 17:05 | nope |
| Juan Leyva | 17:05 | that was the idea, the same for lang strings |
| Juan Leyva | 17:05 | you can translate the native app strings using your Moodle lang tools |
| Rex Lorenzo | 17:05 | first user login? but it does "refresh" every so often? |
| sam MARshall | 17:05 | When you release your mobile app to public stores you can look forward to great comments like this one: 'Doesn't do what it claims, no materials, clunky interface, no close/exit button. Developers should be embarrassed, a child could do better.' |
| Juan Leyva | 17:05 | yes, it refresh |
| sam MARshall | 17:05 | :) |
| sam MARshall | 17:06 | note - that comment was NOT about the moodle mobile app |
| sam MARshall | 17:06 | :) |
| Justin Filip | 17:06 | @Sam, is that just general guidance on the PhoneGap site? =) |
| sam MARshall | 17:06 | lol |
| Dan Poltawski | 17:06 | https://tracker.moodle.org/secure/RapidBoard.jspa?rapidView=6&quickFilter=19 |
| sam MARshall | 17:06 | (@Justin - Probably should be!) |
| Andrew Nicols | 17:06 | mobile@moodle.org bounces |
| Tim Hunt | 17:07 | That was a really full meeting! |
| Dan Poltawski | 17:07 | mobilw@moodle.com |
| Tim Hunt | 17:07 | Good stuff |
| Dan Poltawski | 17:07 | mobile@moodle.com |
| Brian Merritt | 17:07 | great |
| Martin Dougiamas | 17:07 | main point of the app is to provide offline features, notifications, and features that are good on touch (eg assignment grading) |
| Brian Merritt | 17:07 | thanks all |
| Gareth J Barnard | 17:07 | Thanks all :) |
| sam MARshall | 17:07 | thanks everyone :) |
| Andrew Nicols | 17:07 | Thanks all |
| Nadav Kavalerchik | 17:07 | Thanks :-) |
| Martin Dougiamas | 17:07 | ciao |
| Phill Miller | 17:07 | Thanks! |
| Anthony Borrow | 17:07 | cheers |
| Justin Filip | 17:07 | HEY! |
| Mark Johnson | 17:08 | thanks! |
| Ted van den Brink | 17:08 | Thanks! |
| Martin Dougiamas | 17:08 | go to sleep North Americans |
| Justin Filip | 17:08 | *grumble* ;) |
| sam MARshall | 17:08 | lol |
| Justin Filip | 17:08 | We still love you, Dan! |
| sam MARshall | 17:08 | ...incontinence? |
| Andrew Nicols | 17:08 | MDL-37127 for the shifter issue. I'll try and do a decent screencast of it to demonstrate things a better |
| sam MARshall | 17:08 | right I'm going |
| sam MARshall | 17:08 | :) |
| Justin Filip | 17:08 | Thanks, everyone. ;) |
| Sam Hemelryk | 17:08 | Night everyone |
| Yiannis Arapoglou | 17:08 | byee |
| Yiannis Arapoglou | 17:08 | thank you |
