Developer meeting August 2012

Developer meetings > August 2012 meeting notes

Time	13:00 UTC on Tuesday, 28 August 2012
Meeting room	Moodle Dev Meeting Course

In this meeting we focussed on activities outside Moodle HQ.

Agenda

• Roll-call and introductions
• Invited speaker: Andrew Nicols (LUNS)
• Moodle 2.4 progress
• Hackfest

If you would like to add an agenda item, please edit this page this page or email Michael d.

Meeting chat log

Paul Vaughan	14:54	Good afternoon. :)
Tim Hunt	14:54	That's weird. I cannot resize this Firefox window that has the BBB UI in.
Andrew Nicols	14:55	Hi Martin
Mary Cooch	14:55	bonjour
Andrew Nicols	14:55	Hey - I've got some slides instead
Andrew Nicols	14:55	Cheers
Andrew Nicols	14:55	Wooh magic
Tim Hunt	14:56	The new BBB UI is nicer than it was before
Andrew Nicols	14:56	Hopefully these will convert nicely - I've just checked them on our local insatllation
Andrew Nicols	14:56	Had some issues with bullet points etc
Helen Foster	14:56	not really, hmm
Mary Cooch	14:57	ooh! Andrew
Helen Foster	14:57	nice to see you Andrew!
Adrian Greeve	14:58	Should there be sound?
Mary Cooch	14:58	I can hear
Adrian Greeve	14:59	curses.
Davo Smith	14:59	what's the magic setting for enabling soud?
Andrew Nicols	14:59	Shouldn't be nything special afaik - I had to click 'Join Audio'
Helen Foster	15:00	sound preferences on your computer?
Andrew Nicols	15:00	Did he have his Theremin?
Tim Hunt	15:01	Is someone remembering to record this?
Tim Hunt	15:01	Ah, cool!
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:03	who is that long-haired guy? lol
Andrew Nicols	15:03	:p
Mary Cooch	15:03	it's lovely hair :)
David Mudrák	15:03	/me says hello to Andrew, Martin and Apu
Davo Smith	15:03	Yay - closing browser and reopening seems to have fixed the sound for me
David Mudrák	15:03	DISCO!
Andrew Nicols	15:03	It's a bit long at the moment
Helen Foster	15:03	I promised Michael d that I would write some meeting notes. Is it best to do so here or in the dev chat?
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:03	the main question is.. what's Moodle?
Helen Foster	15:04	+1 to lovely hair
Itamar Tzadok	15:04	hy
Gareth J Barnard	15:05	Hello :)
Paul Vaughan	15:05	Hi! :)
Martin Dougiamas	15:06	Nice to actually see you Andrew
Tim Hunt	15:10	That was very early in the cycle fo my learning JS.
Tim Hunt	15:11	Has that been integrated yet?
Tim Hunt	15:11	Sure, but please submit for peer review soon!
Mark Nielsen	15:14	To prevent the main window from scrolling, did you turn overflow to hidden on the body?
Helen Foster	15:15	what are toolboxes?
Helen Foster	15:15	ah, thanks!
Mary Cooch	15:17	nice
Martin Dougiamas	15:17	yes yes
Itamar Tzadok	15:17	About the chooser if there many modules there is scroll. So perhaps collapsibility of the two sections activities and resources
Tim Hunt	15:17	ForumNG needs an Ajax HTML editor too.
sam marshall	15:18	re htmleditor - consider iframe (I'm switching forumng from pure ajax to iframe for the editors)
David Mudrák	15:18	we all need it. it's the matter of core cupport for preparing draft areas AFAIK
Martin Dougiamas	15:18	Could drag and drop to change order, and it stays that way
Martin Dougiamas	15:18	yeah
Gareth J Barnard	15:18	Its a really good enhancement :)
Tim Hunt	15:19	It is really hard to get feedback.
Paul Vaughan	15:19	Andrew, what's your Twitter username?
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:20	that's coz you use the wrong language, lol.
Andrew Nicols	15:20	_andrewrn_
Paul Vaughan	15:20	Thx :)
Gareth J Barnard	15:20	Did you ask for a posting on MoodleNews?
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:21	(very good points, that slide ones)
David Mudrák	15:21	that's important feedback for HQ
Martin Dougiamas	15:21	:-( we don't want to be scary
Martin Dougiamas	15:21	BOO
Mary Cooch	15:22	thats a pity you feel that
Paul Vaughan	15:22	Releasing even a little block is scary!
Gareth J Barnard	15:22	Tim, Dan and Davo are really helpful in the developer forum :)
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:22	I'm scared what the hell you all eat @ LUNS, monsters!
Mary Evans	15:22	lol
Juergen Zimmer	15:23	sorry, also pretty new to moodle devel. Where do I find the developer chat? I keep bothering Tim ;)
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:23	monsters (developing, of course, lol)
Mary Cooch	15:23	anonymous forum -hmmm
Mark Johnson	15:23	Developer chat isn't very well advertised
Juergen Zimmer	15:23	Cool, Tim is my mentor then ;)
Gareth J Barnard	15:23	What's the link for Developer Chat?
Mark Johnson	15:23	you have to know its there and go looking for it
Martin Dougiamas	15:23	that last one has been on my wishlist for a while
Mark Johnson	15:24	http://moodle.org/local/chatlogs/info.php
Juergen Zimmer	15:24	thanks
Gavin Henrick	15:24	with your background in human interaction, what did you think about moving from 2 clicks to 3? from drop downs, to using the UI.
Tim Hunt	15:24	http://moodle.org/local/chatlogs/info.php
Steve Bader	15:24	I'm new as well, now I am a full time developer for Moodle for my University. New resources are great!
sam marshall	15:24	click +double click, innit?
Juergen Zimmer	15:24	"Sorry, but you do not currently have permissions to do that (View chat logs)"
sam marshall	15:24	new one
Rex Lorenzo	15:24	I get the same error
Gareth J Barnard	15:25	Thanks Mark, I don't have access, please could Contrib developers have access too :)
Martin Dougiamas	15:25	It's less decisions
Gavin Henrick	15:25	sam, yes, thats 3 :)
Tim Hunt	15:25	The problem with suggestions like anonymous forums, etc. is that they go against Moodle's pedagogy. https://docs.moodle.org/23/en/Pedagogy#Social_Constructionism_as_a_Referent
Mark Johnson	15:25	ah, you might need to be a core committer (?)
Gavin Henrick	15:25	try adding 1000 url resources, the extra clicks count
David Mudrák	15:25	IIRC Developers chat is open for Moodle contributors, isn't it?
sam marshall	15:25	3 clicks > 1 + double, imo :)
Tim Hunt	15:25	4. Useful to knowo someone's brackground if you are answering their question.
Helen Foster	15:25	Gareth, get in touch with me, I'll let you in!
Gareth J Barnard	15:25	Thanks Helen :)
Martin Dougiamas	15:25	Jabber to developers@conference.moodle.org
Helen Foster	15:26	or anyone else (until we automate access)
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:26	we also need planet.moodle.org to explode and accept more sources.
Davo Smith	15:26	I played around with adding mod_edit forms in an iframe
sam marshall	15:26	that form is monstrous, so I sincerely hope it doesn't get added in to the picker :)
Gareth J Barnard	15:26	How long did it take to create?
Davo Smith	15:26	I think it might be in contrib somewhere
Helen Foster	15:26	Martin what were you referring to "that last one has been on my wishlist for a while"?
Gareth J Barnard	15:26	Cool :) - testing is a *** espectially with IE
Mark Johnson	15:26	I've played with loading mforms via AJAX, it's doable but it's not pretty. I dont know if it's doable with TinyMCE
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:27	clap, clap, clap => Andrew
Paul Vaughan	15:27	Thank you Andrew. :)
Mary Cooch	15:27	applause
Sam Hemelryk	15:27	(y)
Helen Foster	15:27	really interesting, thanks a lot Andrew
Mark Nielsen	15:27	Thanks
Andrew Nicols	15:27	Thanks for listenig :)
Juergen Zimmer	15:27	thanks, interesting stuff!
Helen Foster	15:28	oh, shall I create one right away?
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:28	hope listening does no implies understanding, lol, slides really helped.
Gareth J Barnard	15:28	Yes please :)
David Mudrák	15:28	The problem with threads at moodle.org is that they become "down the screen" pretty quickly
David Mudrák	15:29	so announcing a new project there is tricky
Mary Evans	15:29	Thanks Andrew
Andrew Nicols	15:29	There was a question about moodlenews - I didn't know about Moodle News back then ;)
Gareth J Barnard	15:29	Would be cool if when you clicked on a thread it jumped to the last post in the forums.
Gareth J Barnard	15:29	Thanks Andrew :)
sam marshall	15:29	gareth 0 click the numbrt
sam marshall	15:29	number
Tim Hunt	15:29	If you click the number of unread posts, it takes you to first unread post
Helen Foster	15:30	there is a last post link
Gareth J Barnard	15:30	Did not know that - thanks guys & girls :)
Helen Foster	15:30	Dan is super!
Mary Cooch	15:31	Superdan
David Mudrák	15:31	I remember myself having difficulties with getting feedback on workshop spec in pre-2.0 times. it took weeks to gather useful info.
Tim Hunt	15:31	The main problem with dev chat is that only a limite dnumber of peple see it.
Mary Evans	15:31	I find dev chat is really difficult to manage i always end up with old logs
Mark Nielsen	15:33	Developer only forum?
Tim Hunt	15:33	MArk, General developer forum exists.
David Mudrák	15:33	isn't that GDF?
Martin Dougiamas	15:34	https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Roadmap
Mark Nielsen	15:34	More developer only though, less posts. Devs asking devs stuff...
sam marshall	15:34	GDF is mainly used by non developers imo :)
Tim Hunt	15:34	Shoudl sam H talk about htis?
Sam Hemelryk	15:35	I think I'm lined up to speak briefly about things
Tim Hunt	15:35	http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-25290
Mark Johnson	15:35	+1 on what sam said, GDF has a lot of questions from non-devs who ask there becuase it's active with lots of knowledgeable people
Mark Nielsen	15:35	Yeah, that's what I'm getting at
Andrew Nicols	15:36	yup
Mark Nielsen	15:36	Get some instant send forum posts, smaller audience - easier to follow posts
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:36	too loud
Adam Olley	15:36	its perfect
Adam Olley	15:36	everyone else was too quiet ;)
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:36	lol
Mike Churchward	15:36	What Adam said...
Adam Olley	15:36	(sorry eloy)
David Mudrák	15:37	Eloy: get a new Mac with the volume button (not that Apple-sexy but hey it works)  :-p
Tony Levi	15:37	its a partly magic bullet ;-)
Martin Dougiamas	15:37	https://github.com/samhemelryk/moodle/tree/wip-MDL-25290-m24-compact
Rex Lorenzo	15:37	what is the ideal server setup to take advantage of the MUC?
Tim Hunt	15:38	I guess it is a bullet, but you ahve to aim it yourself ;-)
Martin Dougiamas	15:38	3 kinds of caching ...
Helen Foster	15:41	static, session and ?
Andrew Nicols	15:41	you need to click publish
Sam Hemelryk	15:41	application
Martin Dougiamas	15:41	shared
Andrew Nicols	15:41	nope
sam marshall	15:41	no?
Mark Johnson	15:41	no :(
Mary Cooch	15:41	no
Tim Barker	15:41	no
Rajesh Taneja	15:41	no
Mary Evans	15:41	no
Helen Foster	15:42	application caching?
Helen Foster	15:42	thanks
Mary Evans	15:43	does Martin need to closed his screen?
sam marshall	15:44	Is there an example definition file? Maybe stick it on pastebin or something?
Sam Hemelryk	15:45	https://github.com/samhemelryk/moodle/blob/wip-MDL-25290-m24-MUC/lib/db/caches.php
sam marshall	15:45	interested but no time :( It sounds good though, & I know Tim looked at it.
Sam Hemelryk	15:45	Tim === legend (thanks once more Tim)
sam marshall	15:46	thanks for definition list, looking now :)
Mark Nielsen	15:46	Sam, when reviewing I thought that the idea of definitions were confusing. Would it make more sense that when I want to create my own cache, that I would extend some base class and then use my class for my cache?
Tim Hunt	15:47	Subclassing is a bad way to configure anything.
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:47	I'd declare all core impls as final to prevent custom extension
sam marshall	15:47	I had a question about multi-server systems. Is thre a way to indicate in definition or whatever that a certain cache can be stored locally on each front-end server & doesn't need to be invalidated
Mark Nielsen	15:47	It's not really a confugration IMO
Justin Filip	15:48	Sorry if this is in the Wiki but is the cached data being stored in DB or on the filesystem?
Mark Nielsen	15:48	Sam, how should I reach you
Tim Hunt	15:49	It is probably a 'local hard disc' cache back-end type.
Tim Hunt	15:49	No reason it cannot be added later, sam, I think.
Tim Hunt	15:49	That is sam m
Justin Filip	15:49	=) Got it. Cool, thanks.
sam marshall	15:49	thinking of junk like the config cache, strings, would be nice to reduce net requests is all.
Tony Levi	15:49	I did that, so xcache could be used between servers, it works nicely for lang cache
Sam Hemelryk	15:50	sam.hemelryk@gmail.com
Kris Stokking	15:50	Does this assume that there's a single cache backend being used for Application, Session, etc. caching?
Tim Hunt	15:51	Kris, each cache can use a different back-end
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	15:51	sure xcache can be used. no single, multiple allowed, each cache definition is associated with a chache instance (servers, configuration @ admin afaik)
Sam Hemelryk	15:51	Nope sorry
Sam Hemelryk	15:51	Kris: You can have several application back ends, there will be one used by default and you can map them for use etc
Kris Stokking	15:52	Right, but if I wanted to store certain session data on disk and other data in memcache, would an admin have the ability to configure that?
Tony Levi	15:52	I'm not sure the coherency problem has been dealt with yet
Mark Nielsen	15:52	You mean you can configure each definition to use a specific backend (potentially)?
Sam Hemelryk	15:52	Mark: Thanks for look at it btw, please do post on MDL-25290, certainly I'd like to hear more about what your thoughts were and perhaps look at how we can address issues like the definition confusion
Justin Filip	15:52	SVG? =)
Rex Lorenzo	15:52	Retinal display
Mark Nielsen	15:52	Sure thing Sam, I'll be able to elaborate some more
Sam Hemelryk	15:53	Year, each definition can make use of 1or more backends (they can be stacked to provide redundancy)
Sam Hemelryk	15:53	Great thanks Mark
Sam Hemelryk	15:53	Kris, yes that is the idea, providing the cache has a definition you can map it to any suitable backend
sam marshall	15:54	agree, wait for me to make it work in 2.3 :)
sam marshall	15:54	then look at it again, i hope
Mark Johnson	15:54	Yay ical!
Sam Hemelryk	15:55	Tony we had best have a chat about the coherency concerns, certainly the more complete we can make this the better
Gavin Henrick	15:55	not all of europe :)
Tony Levi	15:55	yeah, I need to actually set up the existing code and poke it with a stick first
Sam Hemelryk	15:56	Hehe great, please do, I'll be keen to hear how it goes
Tim Hunt	15:56	I have a small, but scary, proposed change for 2.4 that I would like to talk about.
David Mudrák	15:56	sorry, no mic here
David Mudrák	15:58	talking about plugins, there is this Plugins -> AMOS integration langing soon. Watch MDLSITE-1836 for progress
Gareth J Barnard	15:58	Updating plugins with the ability to 'undo' a version would be good :)
Anthony Borrow	15:58	what are the plans on getting stats on plugins for registered sites?
David Mudrák	15:58	Undo is tricky because of backups. And making full backup is tricky via PHP
Mark Nielsen	15:58	Yes :)
Tim Hunt	15:59	Why not use themes for that?
Gareth J Barnard	15:59	That would be cool as discussion on http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-35048
Mark Nielsen	15:59	Course formats currently cannot select the layout, themes can still theme the layout, etc
Rex Lorenzo	16:00	ticket for the course format changes?
Itamar Tzadok	16:01	I have suggested to automate creation of issue tracker and Moodle docs page upon approval of a new contributed plugin.
Justin Filip	16:03	Yeah, for any of those other projects in progress, can that page be updated with tracker / wiki links (where applicable)?
Rajesh Taneja	16:03	FYI: http://moodle.org/plugins/view.php?plugin=repository_mediacapture
Gareth J Barnard	16:03	I think that course formats should stick with layouts and reference 'base class' type themeing in core that themes could then 'inherit' from.
Rex Lorenzo	16:03	What did you mention about the Collection module?
sam marshall	16:04	feedback: if this is a survey/feedback/questionnaire module, Collection is not a very obvious name :)
sam marshall	16:04	ah, cool
Tim Hunt	16:04	Please may I talk about my user-searching feature?
Tim Hunt	16:05	Well, it is a 2.4 thing
Tim Hunt	16:05	Hopefully
Tim Hunt	16:05	I could edit the roadmap wiki page to add it there, thenit woudl fit onw on the agenda!
Mary Cooch	16:05	:)
Mary Evans	16:05	ARE THERE ANY PLANS TO ADD SOME NEAW THEME INTO 2.4 OR 2.5
Andrew Nicols	16:06	Did you guys ever move to Postgres?
Justin Filip	16:06	Is there an easy way for us to find issues in the tracker that have API changes? We've been getting bitten by changes to core APIs, removal of methods/functions, new APIs.
Tim Hunt	16:06	Justin, there is now an API cahnge label./
Rex Lorenzo	16:06	release notes have a good collection of changes
Helen Foster	16:06	justin, there is a api changes label
Tim Hunt	16:06	Also, in the code, look for upgrade.txt files.
Justin Filip	16:06	Excellent, thanks.
Tim Hunt	16:06	Like question/type/upgrade.txt
Helen Foster	16:07	https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Tracker_issue_labels
Tim Hunt	16:07	For chagnes to the question type API
Justin Filip	16:07	Are those upgrade.txt files written before a release or is that part of the release process?
David Mudrák	16:07	before
Tim Hunt	16:07	Justin, then should be writted whene the development is done.
Justin Filip	16:07	Perfect
Tim Hunt	16:08	If you make a comit changing an API, it shoudl get rejected in integration review if you have nto updated the upgrade.txt file at the same time.
Kris Stokking	16:08	I assumed you were a bit busy, but thanks! :)
Mark Johnson	16:09	yes
Andrew Nicols	16:09	yup
Mark Nielsen	16:09	yes
Tony Levi	16:09	yep
Paul Vaughan	16:09	Yep.
Martin Dougiamas	16:09	yes, though you sound english
Tony Levi	16:09	love it.
Mary Evans	16:09	:)
Tim Hunt	16:09	http://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-34657
Tim Hunt	16:10	https://github.com/timhunt/moodle/compare/master...MDL-34657#L16R175
Andrew Nicols	16:11	Thanks Tim - seems like a great idea
Paul Vaughan	16:11	exact / fuzzy option - good idea
Helen Foster	16:12	I didn't find it applying to moodle.org but will look again
Gareth J Barnard	16:12	Chuffin Nora - a big change Tim!
Mark Nielsen	16:12	Anyone still interesting in that developer only forum?
Tony Levi	16:13	waho
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	16:13	Please announce CVS EOL for 2.x (<=2.5 ok, <= 2.4 perfect)
Tony Levi	16:13	that sorting code is scary
Tim Hunt	16:13	I personally think that is a bad idea. Developers need tot alk to users more, not less.
Tony Levi	16:13	i.e slow
Gareth J Barnard	16:13	I'm looking forward to the course format changes - please keep up the good work guys :)
Helen Foster	16:13	Mark, do you mean moderate the gen dev forum more?
Mark Nielsen	16:13	No, it's basically dev chat but a forum
Tim Hunt	16:13	Re API change lablel. See, for example, http://tracker.moodle.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&jqlQuery=labels+%3D+api_change
Sam Hemelryk	16:13	kill it
Mary Evans	16:13	I wonder if ther is a need to drop some old themes
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	16:13	idiot question, can the same application caches be shared between multiple sites? Can be really useful for partPlease announce CVS EOL for 2.x (<=2.5 ok, <=2.4 perfect)
Sam Hemelryk	16:13	kill it now
Andrew Nicols	16:14	Please kill it?
Justin Filip	16:14	*single tear*
Darko Miletić	16:14	A bit late to the call
Iñaki Arenaza	16:14	Yep, I'm collecting CVS stats on our server
Anthony Borrow	16:14	lang 1.9 still uses cvs
Mary Evans	16:14	we could do with the ability to add images into theme via settings page
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	16:14	I'm interested only on core. feel free to keep langs/contrib
Gareth J Barnard	16:14	Odd question, why Git and not Mercurial?
David Mudrák	16:15	sorry?
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	16:15	lol, gar
Gareth J Barnard	16:15	Ok ;)
Itamar Tzadok	16:15	Contributed plugins: tie newly approved to docs page and issue tracker automatically
Iñaki Arenaza	16:15	Gareth It's all Martin Langhoff's fault!!!!
Gareth J Barnard	16:15	ROFL
Gareth J Barnard	16:15	I've grown to love Git, now use it in other projects too :)
Martin Vögeli	16:16	tim & mary: can we have a chat about MDL-31365 after the main chat?
Sam Hemelryk	16:16	Mary had a feature request for admin settings being able to deal with files
Mary Evans	16:16	yes
Mark Nielsen	16:16	File upload? Yes, we would like that as well!
Gareth J Barnard	16:16	Plus thumbs up for Mary Coochs' Git help :)
Sam Hemelryk	16:16	Everyone would love that I think
Martin Vögeli	16:16	cool :)
Martin Vögeli	16:17	tim? it won't take long...
Andrew Nicols	16:17	Thanks all - and thanks to HQ for staying up til stupidly late :)
Gavin Henrick	16:17	thanks
Tim Hunt	16:17	Thank you
Gareth J Barnard	16:17	Thanks :)
Mike Churchward	16:17	Bye everyone.
Mary Evans	16:17	Thank YOU!
Paul Vaughan	16:17	Ta all.
Mary Cooch	16:17	thanks
Iñaki Arenaza	16:17	Thanks
Mark Nielsen	16:17	thanks
Kris Stokking	16:17	Thanks everyone
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	16:17	(finger)
Justin Filip	16:17	Thanks
Itamar Tzadok	16:17	Thanks
Mark Johnson	16:17	Thanks, bye!
Paul Vaughan	16:17	Nite!
Sam Hemelryk	16:17	Morning everyone
Rajesh Taneja	16:18	ciao
Andrew Nicols	16:18	Yup :)
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	16:18	ciao :-)
Tim Hunt	16:18	Anyone who cares about black-board question import, you owe Jean-Michel Vedrine
Rossiani Wijaya	16:18	byee
Tim Barker	16:18	night