Developer meeting April 2014

Developer meetings > April 2014 meeting notes

Time	13:00 UTC on Tuesday, 29 April 2014
Meeting room	Moodle Google+ Event page
Chat	Regular Dev chat
Twitter	#moodledev

In this meeting we focused on the impending release.

Meeting Video

<mediaplayer>http://youtu.be/UjK_lpKG0gQ</mediaplayer> Note: For an optimised view and to see the chat log, change settings to 1024p HD quality.

Meeting Notes

• Moodle 2.7 progress
  • Conditional activity conditions (Sam Marshall)
  • Atto (Damyon Wiese)
  • Theme clean-up and More theme (Frédéric Massart)
  • Task scheduling (Cron improvements) (Damyon Wiese)
  • Logging (Petr Skoda)
• What does LTS mean? (Martin Dougiamas)
• Roadmap after 2.7 (Martin Dougiamas)
• MootUK14 Hackfest (Michael de Raadt)

If you have something you'd like to add to the agenda, please edit this page or contact Michael d.

Questions from the Audience

• Please give some status report on the development progress of : LTI, xAPI (TinCan) & SCORM modules.
• Since the events system got overhauled in Moodle 2.7, what is the future of the messaging system and API?

Meeting chat log

David Mudrák	just started here	9:07:39 PM
Davo Smith	refresh the page	9:07:40 PM
Adrian Greeve	working here as well.	9:07:40 PM
Dan Poltawski	just started	9:07:41 PM
Martín Langhoff	I'm in!	9:07:45 PM
danbennett	On! *waves*	9:07:50 PM
Davo Smith	i can see youtube spinner ...	9:07:58 PM
Martín Langhoff	hello from the meeting room	9:07:58 PM
Martín Langhoff	I had to press "play" again. No auto-start	9:07:59 PM
Sam Hemelryk	howdy	9:08:12 PM
Justin Filip	Morning everyone.	9:08:30 PM
OdyX	evenin'	9:08:59 PM
Tim Hunt	Sam is here	9:09:55 PM
Dan Poltawski	this is funny	9:09:57 PM
Tim Hunt	At his desk	9:09:59 PM
Tim Hunt	I can see sam desperately installing the hangout plugin	9:10:19 PM
Justin Filip	I forsee a lot of Martin accidentally repeating what someone else has already said in our future. =)	9:10:20 PM
Barbara Ramiro	X.Y. Ng 9:09 if you log into your google+ account you should've gotten an invite alr? X.Y. Ng 8:45 otherwise, try clicking here: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/hoaevent/AP36tYekrFJpObWWuN_qdOkqcg60uexxLJdbNgVh8qPi3eX6nWHDSQ?authuser=0&eid=105778778870640201730&hl=en	9:10:23 PM
Martin Dougiamas	(I didn't get one either XY)	9:10:47 PM
Tim Hunt	Good grief. HQ is infested by beards. Damyon has one now.	9:10:53 PM
Martin Dougiamas	I can't hear Damyon at all, can anyone else?	9:11:11 PM
Sam Hemelryk	an impressive one at that	9:11:12 PM
Davo Smith	I can hear him	9:11:19 PM
XY Ng	Yep can hear Damyon fine	9:11:19 PM
Sam Hemelryk	Yip I can hear clearly	9:11:19 PM
Adrian Greeve	No problem	9:11:20 PM
Rajesh Taneja	Yes I can	9:11:20 PM
Dan Poltawski	we can hear Damyon, Marti	9:11:21 PM
Michael de Raadt	Yes.	9:11:23 PM
Dan Poltawski	you can't hear anyone	9:11:29 PM
David Mudrák	david.mobile noticed couple more beers Petr is hiding at the shelve	9:11:30 PM
Jason Fowler	that sounds like a good time to raise this: http://beardsy.com/archives/229	9:11:36 PM
sam marshall	TinyMCE 3.5.8 has IE11 bug which 3.5.10 fixes apparently, any plans to update?	9:12:33 PM
Martin Dougiamas	ok, fixed it at my end by resetting google settings in hangout	9:12:48 PM
Mary Cooch	just been documenting that this morn(TinyMCE and Atto preferrences)	9:12:56 PM
sam marshall	(Thanks for answering that, IE11 bug is MDL-42719 btw)	9:13:25 PM
Moodle Bot	https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-42719 - Text editor reports 'Required' once even with text in it (IE11), V: 9, W: 14, Type: Bug, Assignee: Unassigned, Priority: Minor, Status: Open	9:13:25 PM
John	Atto is probably one of the most usuable web text editors I've seen	9:13:41 PM
jetha	it's pretty great	9:14:09 PM
Michael de Raadt	Can you talk about what devs will need to do in relation to transitioning their plugins?	9:14:33 PM
Dan Poltawski	transitioning is a delicate way of putting it :P	9:15:01 PM
Michael de Raadt	Also, it's worth reassuring people that they don't have to do anything to add the new editor to forms. It's just like it was before.	9:15:03 PM
Jason Fowler	john, it gives me warm fuzzies to hear you say that :D	9:15:11 PM
Michael de Raadt	(I'm a delicate guy, Dan ;) )	9:15:22 PM
Jason Fowler	delicate like a hammer ...	9:15:33 PM
Tim Hunt	TinyMCE is based on content editable too. It always has been.	9:17:30 PM
Dan Poltawski	can you zoom the file or paste a link?	9:17:41 PM
Dan Poltawski	I'll get the link	9:17:53 PM
sam marshall	Sidenote: Atto looks really good! I might change my mind when I have to rewrite my TinyMCE plugin but I looked at the API before and it looked like it would be fine.	9:18:09 PM
Justin Filip	Thanks, Dan. This text is too blurry, low-res to really read.	9:18:17 PM
Tim Hunt	CTRL +	9:18:38 PM
Jason Fowler	timhunt, yes it is, but it is also in a iframe shim ...	9:18:42 PM
Dan Poltawski	https://github.com/moodle/moodle/blob/master/lib/editor/atto/plugins/strike/yui/src/button/js/button.js	9:18:53 PM
Tim Hunt	Yes, because old browsers.	9:18:53 PM
Adrian Greeve	I can see!	9:19:03 PM
Jason Fowler	yes, ones Atto doesn't need to support :D	9:19:41 PM
Adrian Greeve	It looks really good.	9:20:46 PM
Martin Dougiamas	Show us your code	9:21:20 PM
Martín Langhoff	we cant see	9:22:14 PM
Dan Poltawski	Fred wrote a plugin using the new api: https://github.com/FMCorz/moodle-availability_xp	9:22:33 PM
Michael de Raadt	Click on Sam's icon.	9:22:38 PM
Michael de Raadt	I can see his sharing.	9:22:41 PM
Martin Dougiamas	click away and then back, wfm	9:23:02 PM
Tim Hunt	Wow! The lag is huge! I can see Sam's screen, and the hangout.	9:23:06 PM
nadavkav	Can we control the Atto's CSS from the theme? (So I can add RTL CSS rules to all the dialogs, unlike with TinyMCE)	9:23:24 PM
Michael de Raadt	The CSS should follow that used in the theme, unlike TinyMCE.	9:23:45 PM
Martín Langhoff	yes - you can override the css in a theme	9:23:48 PM
nadavkav	Beautiful	9:24:04 PM
Martín Langhoff	but RTL will work without changes	9:24:09 PM
nadavkav	TineMCE dialogs are all LTR. And I could not fix it from the theme's CSS	9:24:44 PM
Dan Poltawski	think this is the link Sam was after: https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Availability_conditions	9:24:57 PM
sam marshall	thanks dan!!! That is the one	9:25:12 PM
Marina Glancy	Sam, can conidtional availability be used in other content, not only in course modules or sections? For example, parts of the module?	9:25:21 PM
Justin Filip	BTW, there are questions in the Hangout Q&A section (in case nobody at HQ is looking there?)	9:26:39 PM
sam marshall	hmm, not really - designed for course modules/sections (basically it's integrated with those two forms)	9:26:40 PM
Justin Filip	(unless that's been addressed and I'm really lagged)	9:27:03 PM
sam marshall	(that was answer to Marina's question). It could maybe be added other places but I think would need some reworking of the API a bit. There are some points where it needs to know the context in some way and it's coded for those two cases.	9:27:27 PM
Dan Poltawski	wow the quality on that hangout on air thing is terrible	9:27:30 PM
Michael de Raadt	I wish there was something better.	9:27:48 PM
Dan Poltawski	(use the youtube link if you can, its better)	9:28:01 PM
Martín Langhoff	Hmmm… I'm seeing pretty good quality. Odd.	9:28:34 PM
nadavkav	The conditional activity Group plugin does not seems to be available inside activities, although it is installed. Should I enable some special feature for it to work/be available?	9:28:41 PM
Mary Cooch	turn off enable group members only	9:28:57 PM
sam marshall	nadav - that is because you have 'group members only' turned on on your site under experimental settings	9:28:59 PM
danbennett	Watching on YouTube and its not bad. Not HD (even though 720 selected) but still readable on full screen	9:29:00 PM
nadavkav	Thanks	9:29:03 PM
Martín Langhoff	There is a settings icon on the player bar at the right. I have HD on.	9:29:06 PM
Mary Cooch	snap samamarshall_ou	9:29:14 PM
Mary Cooch	work in progress https://docs.moodle.org/27/en/Conditional_activities_settings	9:29:18 PM
sam marshall	(sorry Mary) re group members only - at present, we made it so you can't do it both ways, to avoid potential confusion. In 2.8 I hope to make it so that groupmembersonly goes away and is automatically implemented using this api instead.	9:29:44 PM
Mary Cooch	yes I remember that conversation/tracker thingie	9:30:29 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	Just saw this Q from Kris in the onair page, Sam: From a performance perspective, is the new version of Conditional Activities roughly equivalent to previous versions? --- Kris Stokking	9:30:40 PM
sam marshall	(right now there are slight differences in how it would work if you use groupmembersonly vs. this feature - a few bits might be better in GMO)	9:30:48 PM
sam marshall	Eloy/Kris - Performance should probably be similar or maybe a bit faster in general, I think it does slightly more php and less database access.	9:31:13 PM
Dan Poltawski	Our testing in HQ found it to be faster	9:31:25 PM
Dan Poltawski	after Marina fixed a major regression :P	9:31:43 PM
sam marshall	yes sorry about that	9:31:49 PM
sam marshall	and thanks Marina!	9:31:52 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	get_course()^n	9:31:54 PM
Marina Glancy		9:31:57 PM
Rajesh Taneja	Yeah, it was better on performance.	9:32:03 PM
Tim Hunt	It takes many more clicks to reset all the course and user themes, if you were using those.	9:32:56 PM
Justin Filip	Don't clone Clean, create a child of Clean. Otherwise you don't inherit bug fixes in the parent theme.	9:33:12 PM
Marina Glancy	The interface is so great, I wish we can apply it everything. Would be so great to have like book pages, lesson pages, etc. with conditional visibility	9:33:19 PM
Martín Langhoff	MDL-25499	9:33:20 PM
Moodle Bot	https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-25499 - Centralise management of all types of cron tasks with registration, scheduling, parallel task conflicts(blocking) and running once off tasks, all using an administration screen., V: 13, W: 26, Type: New Feature, Assignee: Damyon Wiese, Priority: Major, Status: Open	9:33:20 PM
Martin Dougiamas	Justin, no, Clean doesn't have any significant CSS in it. It's all in bootstrapbase.	9:34:00 PM
Martin Dougiamas	so if you clone Clean then you will have a new theme based on bootstrapbase	9:34:20 PM
sam marshall	marina - thanks! and I completely didn't think of that (within module restrictions) beforehand unfortunately... I guess it should be possible especially if those use cases are always within a module, i.e. we still have a $cm where the API needs it... hm	9:34:46 PM
Justin Filip	Martin, ah, okay. Good to know.	9:35:04 PM
Martín Langhoff	https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Task_API	9:35:37 PM
Justin Filip	Martin, the issue we encountered over here (on 2.6) is we had a theme that was created as a copy of Clean and it had bugs that had been subsequently fixed in Clean that were still present in the theme that had been created as a clone.	9:35:59 PM
Martin Dougiamas	shouldn't happen in future	9:36:24 PM
Martin Dougiamas	all core theme fixes should be in base and bootstrapbase only now	9:36:51 PM
Justin Filip	Fantastic.	9:37:04 PM
Dan Poltawski	worth noting that for the tasks API to become effective, we could do with encoruaging sites to run cron more frequently	9:37:06 PM
sam marshall	Btw theme changes sound good. And scheduled tasks are really awesome...	9:37:06 PM
Dan Poltawski	ah, damyon just said that	9:37:22 PM
Martin Dougiamas	(base is deprecated by the way, even though we'll support it for a while yet, we really encourage all new themes to be based on boostrapbase)	9:38:07 PM
sam marshall	We have had a lot of problems in the past with something random breaking/taking ages in cron, and it causing forum emails not to be sent, so our random back-end problem becomes something that affects students. So if they can run in parallel that will be awesome.	9:38:26 PM
Martin Dougiamas	yeah it's really good	9:38:40 PM
Dan Poltawski	I think most people have been hit by that problem	9:38:49 PM
Tim Hunt	Also, it is surprisingly hard to code the logic "Run every day just after 02:00", and now Moodle core does that for you.	9:39:45 PM
Dan Poltawski	IIRC we did have a dst bug so you didn't have to	9:40:09 PM
Justin Filip	This makes me VERY happy.	9:40:12 PM
danbennett	Is there a limit on how many tasks can run simultaniously?	9:40:19 PM
Tim Hunt	Dan, presumably the sane limit is at most one task per web server.	9:41:18 PM
Jason Fowler	Dan Bennett I think the limit is based on the server	9:41:21 PM
sam marshall	Can you set up dependencies like task B cannot run until task A finishes?	9:41:36 PM
Jason Fowler	you can have multiple running at the same time though ...	9:41:46 PM
Martín Langhoff	Will non-critical tasks related to the Moodle upgrade process be moved to this new scheduled task system? That would limit the amount of downtime required for sites to upgrade, particularly with expensive "cleanup" tasks.	9:42:04 PM
sam marshall	OK, no dependencies. (I guess could manually set something in prefs so that the second task notices if the first one didn't finish, and doesn't start itself...)	9:42:21 PM
danbennett	thanks all	9:42:24 PM
Martin Dougiamas	you could make a task AB that calls functions A and B in order, I guess	9:42:27 PM
Dan Poltawski	Kris: as we've discussed before, I don't think this is an approach we can use that much	9:42:32 PM
Martin Dougiamas	Does Unix cron have dependencies? I don't think so	9:43:08 PM
Dan Poltawski	most of the cleanups we do are fixing problems where moodle expects things to be in a consistenet state	9:43:16 PM
Martín Langhoff	yeah, you can't code moodle to cope with the prior state and the after state	9:43:36 PM
Tim Hunt	It is a good foundation	9:43:38 PM
Martín Langhoff	you got to code to one	9:43:40 PM
Martín Langhoff	Yup, and that expectation hasn't changed after the upgrade.	9:43:55 PM
sam marshall	fair point, I'm not sure dependencies are really needed!	9:43:58 PM
Martín Langhoff	I missed a bit — is this run under moodle's cron or as a new daemon?	9:44:04 PM
Dan Poltawski	moodles cron	9:44:11 PM
Martín Langhoff	ok.	9:44:14 PM
Tim Hunt	RUn under Moodle's cron	9:44:16 PM
danbennett	Dependencies would be a nice to have, but just schedule it sensibly would be the better option (like unix)	9:44:20 PM
Dan Poltawski	but you can run the tasks in seperate stricts	9:44:23 PM
Tim Hunt	Which you should now set to run every minute.	9:44:25 PM
Martín Langhoff	it allows us to split some work into "top" parts and "bottom" parts	9:44:32 PM
Justin Filip	Is there a way to target a specific task via CLI?	9:44:42 PM
Dan Poltawski	yes	9:44:48 PM
Martín Langhoff	similar to what kernel drivers do, where the top part runs quick and queues the slow for the "bottom" (which runs under cron)	9:44:54 PM
Martín Langhoff	however, it _is_ tricky re expectations of data state	9:45:06 PM
sam marshall	dan - basically I think our dependencies are going to have to be done sort of like, run every hour, then see if X has happened and if so actually do something. Thinking about it, the main one I know of, it wouldn't be a Moodle task that finisheed or not anyhow, it is us waiting for another system. so...	9:45:09 PM
Martín Langhoff	...	9:45:14 PM
Martín Langhoff	should we be looking at a moodledaemon ???	9:45:24 PM
Dan Poltawski	see admin/tool/task/cli/schedule_task.php	9:45:29 PM
Tim Hunt	If your plugin cron does several things, is it bettere to make several separate cron tasks?	9:45:46 PM
Dan Poltawski	yes	9:45:51 PM
Tim Hunt	Good.	9:45:55 PM
Dan Poltawski	if they can be split	9:45:57 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	so ppl does NOT need to prevent multiple cron.php executions any more. That's not good for the new system (or am I wrong?)	9:46:24 PM
Martín Langhoff	if this gets used widely, we'll need to (a) try to parallelize moodle cron (forking off tasks) or (b) have a long-running moodlecrond … or both	9:46:25 PM
Martín Langhoff	at RL we place flocks around moodle cron to prevent concurrent execution	9:46:52 PM
Dan Poltawski	Martin: you could explicitly disable some tasks from running in moodle cron	9:46:56 PM
sam marshall	(lol at coding style invented 2 weeks ago)	9:46:59 PM
Martin Dougiamas	martin, if you run it on a cluster each node will be in parallel	9:47:03 PM
Martín Langhoff	yes you should remove custom locking around locking	9:47:10 PM
Tim Hunt	MArtin, you missed the bit wher they said that it locks individual tasks.	9:47:15 PM
Martín Langhoff	it does it's own now	9:47:19 PM
sam marshall	yay removing custom locks	9:47:27 PM
Tim Hunt	Don;t the validations hurt performance?	9:47:53 PM
Martín Langhoff	current moodle cron code is full of race conditions. if you run it in parallel (in a cluster, or on a single machine) you get a ton of fugly bugs	9:47:59 PM
OdyX	yay for custom locks indeed.	9:48:04 PM
Eric Merrill	Where did he say the best example is? I couldn't understand him	9:48:05 PM
sam marshall	Eric: assign module	9:48:13 PM
Michael de Raadt	timhunt: No, the class constructs are doing most of the validation.	9:48:15 PM
Martin Dougiamas	yes martin exaclty why the new cron is better	9:48:23 PM
Martín Langhoff	we could place more granular locks per module, to avoid the race conditions.	9:48:26 PM
Tim Hunt	Martin, that is waht it does!	9:48:35 PM
Marina Glancy	some validation is skipped when debugging dev mode is off	9:48:44 PM
Martín Langhoff	oh, ok, I missed some parts of it.	9:48:46 PM
Martín Langhoff	and there is a locking api if you need to do your own locking for something else	9:49:01 PM
Martín Langhoff	how does it reap a lock from a dead process?	9:49:22 PM
Martín Langhoff	the locking api is pluggable	9:49:32 PM
Eric Merrill	If old log is disabled, when you backup with logs, with logs from before the 2.7 upgrade be included?	9:49:43 PM
Martín Langhoff	so it can use flock / db locking / memcache	9:49:45 PM
Martín Langhoff	whatever you want	9:49:51 PM
Eric Merrill	*will logs from before the 2.7 upgrade be included?	9:50:05 PM
Martín Langhoff	it cleans up locks automatically	9:50:05 PM
Dan Poltawski	https://github.com/moodle/moodle/tree/master/lib/classes/lock	9:50:07 PM
sam marshall	Can we turn off the new logging api, i.e. select null output for it, while we are depending on the old tables? To save some of the performance.	9:50:08 PM
Marina Glancy	everything goes though logging api	9:50:37 PM
Marina Glancy	but you can disable the logstore_standard	9:50:51 PM
sam marshall	yes - that's what I meant. Great, thanks.	9:50:59 PM
sam marshall	(we have external systems pulling mdl_log and doing analysis or whatever, so they probably won't want to change all at once.)	9:51:21 PM
Marina Glancy	don't forget to enable both legacy logstore AND inside it's settings - writing to it	9:51:23 PM
sam marshall		9:52:19 PM
nadavkav	we also have a lot of custom SQL reports depending on mdl_log	9:52:23 PM
Tim Hunt	When is HQ going to add the missing add_to_log calls to core?	9:52:33 PM
Michael de Raadt	After 2.7.	9:52:54 PM
Martin Dougiamas	Petr can you show the docs about how to convert add_to_log calls?	9:52:58 PM
Michael de Raadt	There is an epic ready to go.	9:53:00 PM
Marina Glancy	we hope on community contributions there Tim	9:53:07 PM
nadavkav	what should be done on our part to migrate those reports to use the new log store?	9:53:14 PM
Marina Glancy	https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Migrating_logging_calls_in_plugins	9:53:51 PM
nadavkav	thanks	9:54:00 PM
jleyva@jabber.org	it will be great to connect logging with the notification/messaging system (so you can subscribe to receive notifications from some type of events logged)	9:54:26 PM
Tim Hunt	I still think it sucks how hard it is to log one action.	9:54:34 PM
nadavkav	Marina, that's from the developer side.	9:54:42 PM
Martín Langhoff	https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Event_2	9:54:45 PM
Marina Glancy	https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Migrating_log_access_in_reports	9:54:49 PM
Marina Glancy	Nadav, yes, this is a dev meeting	9:55:00 PM
Martín Langhoff	https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Logging_2	9:55:03 PM
nadavkav	what about from the reports side. (Where those event's registered?)	9:55:09 PM
Marina Glancy	Nadav, the first link was answer to Martin, the second - to your question	9:55:32 PM
sam marshall	for info about hooks (low-level plugin communication) that Petr is talking about - this is MDL-44078	9:55:44 PM
Moodle Bot	https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-44078 - Proposal: API standard in Moodle that uses autoloading (hooks), V: 11, W: 18, Type: Improvement, Assignee: Marina Glancy, Priority: Minor, Status: Open	9:55:44 PM
Martin Dougiamas	yes, get involved there	9:57:21 PM
Dan Poltawski	i'd not seen the comments on that issue	9:58:33 PM
nadavkav	marina, I am using a lot to reports from : https://docs.moodle.org/26/en/ad-hoc_contributed_reports	9:58:38 PM
nadavkav	will mdl_log be not available anymore?	9:59:02 PM
danbennett	Q from IRC "can we not get an originaltime property or similar for events raised by the backup system?"	9:59:04 PM
Dan Poltawski	but I wholeheartly support that way more important than a 'hook api' is not inventing yet another way to do things that everything is disjointed	9:59:09 PM
Tim Hunt	I think the integrtators should only allow hooks to be added if they allow three other things to be removed.	9:59:40 PM
Tim Hunt	Or t last deprecated.	9:59:46 PM
Dan Poltawski	people ahve been asking for hooks for at least 6 or 7 years, I remember us defending the position that moodle is different to drupal in that way	9:59:55 PM
sam marshall	I think we should have the hook API and deprecate old events...	9:59:57 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	rofl	10:00:06 PM
nadavkav	what needs to be done from the php developer side is very clear, but I am not sure what I need to do from the SQL developer side	10:00:12 PM
Dan Poltawski	and in fact, thats one of the worst things about drupal from when I last looked at it, you've got no idea which hook to use	10:00:31 PM
nadavkav	I am using block_configurable_reports	10:00:41 PM
Tim Hunt	I acutally think that calling it hooks makes it soulds like more than it is. It is really just a convention for using lazy-loading to let core find things in add-ons.	10:00:43 PM
sam marshall	tim- there's definition files to make it documentable too, isn't there?	10:01:08 PM
Tim Hunt	Well, a base class. Yes.	10:01:19 PM
nadavkav	btw, Any news on Totara's ReportBuilder?	10:01:35 PM
Martin Dougiamas	not yet	10:01:48 PM
nadavkav	Thnanks	10:02:09 PM
Dan Poltawski	Is petr gonna convert mod_quiz events to his new syntax	10:02:10 PM
sam marshall	lol	10:02:20 PM
Tim Hunt	You still have to create a whole class	10:02:22 PM
Marina Glancy	but triggering is in one line	10:02:33 PM
Tim Hunt	Also, why did you dump 1,600 lines of crap code into quiz, before invending the good way?	10:02:49 PM
Dan Poltawski	agree with Tims sentiment.	10:02:59 PM
Dan Poltawski	it was too late.	10:03:08 PM
Tim Hunt	Yes	10:03:13 PM
Martin Dougiamas	better late than never	10:03:19 PM
Tim Hunt	Yes.	10:03:23 PM
Marina Glancy	Tim, it would not change the number of lines, just relocate some of them	10:03:44 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	hoho	10:03:53 PM
Marina Glancy	thanks Petr for calling me hooks expert	10:04:14 PM
Tim Hunt	Right, so in a tyical log class, tehre iare maybe a dozen lines if meaningful information, and about 50+ lines of bolierplate.	10:04:17 PM
Tim Hunt	Not a good API.	10:04:26 PM
Marina Glancy	btw Tim, look at the new report "Events list"	10:05:08 PM
Martin Dougiamas	someone put that on the screen	10:05:24 PM
Marina Glancy	you will see where those dozens of lines are used	10:05:26 PM
Dan Poltawski	or should they use a hook, fred!	10:06:15 PM
nadavkav	Thanks	10:06:17 PM
Tim Hunt	Really, you will let me delete quiz/classes/events?	10:06:32 PM
Marina Glancy	if you create quiz/classes/hook	10:06:53 PM
nadavkav	Is on the same DB?	10:07:04 PM
nadavkav	or does the new DB store put the logging/events on a remote DB/storing system?	10:07:33 PM
Martin Dougiamas	observering?	10:07:33 PM
sam marshall	dan - re your last troublemaking comment I looked at the new event system - regarding listening to it from code, if you want to listen to something that is already logged, it probably works great, but if you want to make a new event specifically for inter-plugin communication that isn't really about logging, it isn't all that suitable (hence hooks)	10:07:39 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	what mostly concerns me more about all those new things (observers, tasks, hooks...) is that we should avoid abusing them in core. I see all them like sort of "execution at distance" (RMI) that for my mono-core-brain sounds too complex. That saying, at the same time, that I love all them. Just the abusing risk.	10:08:02 PM
Marina Glancy	Nadav, by default it's in the same DB but it can be setup to be in external	10:08:07 PM
Adrian Greeve	stupid typos >_>	10:08:07 PM
nadavkav	thanks (marina)	10:08:21 PM
Marina Glancy	Nadav, check the Site administration>Plugins>Logging	10:08:47 PM
sam marshall	eloy - agree action at a distance can be really confusing, has to be a balance...	10:08:51 PM
nadavkav	I did	10:08:59 PM
Tim Hunt	On the other hand, observer pattern is better than hard-coded fucntion calls between add-ons.	10:09:15 PM
nadavkav	I was a little confused to see I can log out side of Moodle's DB	10:09:24 PM
Justin Filip	... video just went away?	10:09:36 PM
Tim Hunt	Just reload the page	10:09:42 PM
Eric Merrill	I just had to resume	10:09:45 PM
jleyva@jabber.org	reload	10:09:47 PM
nadavkav	which could potentially breaks the SQL JOINs	10:09:51 PM
Justin Filip		10:09:54 PM
Michael de Raadt	Martin is a bit jumpy for me. Anyone else?	10:10:56 PM
sam marshall	yes, me too	10:11:01 PM
Justin Filip	Yeah	10:11:02 PM
Adrian Greeve	Yep	10:11:03 PM
Marina Glancy	yes for me too	10:11:04 PM
Sam Hemelryk	yip same here	10:11:04 PM
sam marshall	lots of dalek voice bits	10:11:04 PM
Eric Merrill	Yeah, bad audio/vid	10:11:06 PM
swit	better now though	10:11:11 PM
Marina Glancy	Martin, stop moving!	10:11:21 PM
sam marshall	maybe if he could turn off camera (audio only) it might fix it?	10:11:23 PM
Martín Langhoff	he has jet lag	10:11:25 PM
Martín Langhoff	its not his fault	10:11:32 PM
jleyva@jabber.org	nadav, you have a setting in Moodle 2.7 (loglegacy) for logging to the old table	10:11:36 PM
Marina Glancy	Jun-17	10:11:50 PM
nadavkav	I know (Juan), but I wish to migrate to the new Event's store. But I am not sure if that will break my old reports	10:12:29 PM
jleyva@jabber.org	SQL reports you mean?	10:12:52 PM
nadavkav	I will dig into it and asked question later, if i get into issues	10:13:06 PM
Justin Filip	The longer people wait to jump up from 1.9, the harder that transition will be. =/	10:13:11 PM
nadavkav	(Juan) yes	10:13:14 PM
sam marshall	justin - but the more improvements they'll get ;)	10:13:26 PM
Justin Filip	This is true. Some people don't see it that way, though. I feel great sadness for those people.	10:13:41 PM
Dan Poltawski	Summary is: data loss bugfixes and security only in LTS period	10:14:03 PM
nadavkav	Thanks	10:14:08 PM
nadavkav	Thanks	10:15:21 PM
nadavkav	(again)	10:15:27 PM
nadavkav	It's more clear now	10:15:37 PM
Tim Hunt	Proposed new qtype icons. (I think they need a bit more work.) Comments welcome. https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-44815?focusedCommentId=286812&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel#comment-286812	10:15:59 PM
Moodle Bot	https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-44815 - New icons for the question types, V: 1, W: 6, Type: Improvement, Assignee: Tim Hunt, Priority: Major, Status: Open	10:15:59 PM
sam marshall	martin's been autotuned, did somebody think he was off-key?	10:16:37 PM
OdyX	sound quality is hardly bearable here.	10:16:59 PM
nadavkav	Also new features? (Should be ported to 2.7)	10:18:30 PM
Tim Hunt	New featurse shoudl be master only	10:18:41 PM
Martin Dougiamas	new features no	10:18:43 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	N O	10:18:48 PM
Martin Dougiamas	API changes no	10:18:48 PM
OdyX	BIgBlueButton would be super-nice to replace G+Hangout	10:18:50 PM
nadavkav	Thanks	10:18:52 PM
Martín Langhoff	we will backport the bugs	10:18:52 PM
Marina Glancy	bugs or bugfixes?	10:19:04 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	the dataloss & security bugs.	10:19:08 PM
Martín Langhoff	bugs	10:19:08 PM
Dan Poltawski	only if they caue dataloss Moodle Meetings	10:19:09 PM
sam marshall	lol	10:19:10 PM
Martin Dougiamas	Odyx, I'd like that, but BBB screensharing is not good enough yet	10:19:16 PM
Tim Hunt	Hackfest was good.	10:19:23 PM
Martín Langhoff	backport havoc	10:19:26 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	the dataloss & security bugs. the dataloss & security bugs. the dataloss & security bugs. the dataloss & security bugs. the dataloss & security bugs. the dataloss & security bugs. the dataloss & security bugs. or no?	10:19:28 PM
OdyX	Martin: ah yeah, Java crap	10:19:32 PM
Justin Filip	* Minor fixes backported for one year (normal)	10:19:32 PM
Dan Poltawski	fixes only, justin	10:20:00 PM
Martin Dougiamas		10:20:02 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	Plz, state it clearly @ https://docs.moodle.org/dev/Moodle_2.7_release_notes#Long-term_support_.28LTS.29_until_June_2017 too.	10:20:23 PM
Marina Glancy	marina is looking forward backporting bugs	10:20:41 PM
Martin Dougiamas	ok, I'll rewrite, it seemed pretty straightforward!	10:20:57 PM
Dan Poltawski	wait till the morning, Martin :P	10:21:07 PM
Justin Filip	s/bugs/bug fixes/ =)	10:21:10 PM
sam marshall	questions about bootstrap 3 there (not sure this has a straight answer). I've been wondering, if we make a new theme for our Moodle 2.7, do we base it on bootstrap2 (core) or bootstrap3...	10:21:18 PM
Justin Filip	I mean, you _could_ backport bugs but I wouldn't recommend it.	10:21:37 PM
Dan Poltawski	bootstrap 2 if you want core support	10:21:37 PM
Tim Hunt	Surely core will move to 3 at some point?	10:22:00 PM
sam marshall	Somebody (Baz?) was telling us we should all use bootstrap 3 even though it isn't in core because it's better... ;)	10:22:05 PM
Dan Poltawski	its very non-trivial	10:22:08 PM
Martín Langhoff	but first we need to abstract things more	10:22:15 PM
Martín Langhoff	so we don't have to redo everything everytime	10:22:24 PM
Martín Langhoff	ie	10:22:28 PM
sam marshall	lol. yay designers	10:22:33 PM
Martín Langhoff	the element library etc	10:22:34 PM
nadavkav	How about integrating LAE Grader ?	10:22:52 PM
Tim Hunt	Yes. element library	10:22:59 PM
Martin Dougiamas	LAE grader is one thing on the table	10:23:28 PM
nadavkav	Great	10:23:40 PM
Eloy Lafuente (stronk7)	Re: TinCan, good plan.	10:24:26 PM
nadavkav	How about some social features in courses?	10:24:37 PM
Dan Poltawski	I'm not sure Dan is actually here	10:24:44 PM
Mark Nielsen	Latest round of updates for LTI is here: https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-44902	10:24:47 PM
Moodle Bot	https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-44902 - Several additions to External Tool (LTI), V: 0, W: 5, Type: New Feature, Assignee: Mark Nielsen, Priority: Major, Status: Reopened	10:24:47 PM
Martin Dougiamas	if anyone needs more log details for TinCan then just write new events and submit for integration	10:25:02 PM
Jason Hardin	We are also working with a group looking to upgrade to LTI 1.2 and 2	10:25:08 PM
Martín Langhoff	Martin - did you get an email from Stephen Vickers re: LTI 2?	10:25:42 PM
Dan Poltawski	I heard a rumour the message popup got some css love	10:25:45 PM
danbennett	Dan P: yay!	10:26:09 PM
Tim Hunt	Are you sure?	10:26:38 PM
Dan Poltawski	it generates an event	10:26:50 PM
Dan Poltawski	it isn't actually an event itself	10:26:56 PM
Martin Dougiamas	Kris yes, I forwarded him to you	10:27:07 PM
danbennett	Oh poor popup	10:27:14 PM
Dan Poltawski	no, I think it did!	10:27:22 PM
Martín Langhoff	Hmmm, would have been in the last couple of days. We had a meeting last Thursday. Will followup on that.	10:27:37 PM
Martin Dougiamas	then nope	10:27:53 PM
Dan Poltawski	noooo	10:29:00 PM
sam marshall	btw, thanks again to everyone who helped with the conditional availability stuff at slightly last minute	10:29:09 PM
Dan Poltawski		10:29:33 PM
danbennett	danbennett applauses for all	10:29:37 PM
Justin Filip	Thanks for being strict(er?) on the freeze this time.	10:29:37 PM
Dan Poltawski	^ messaging popup	10:29:39 PM
Martín Langhoff	cya from hq	10:29:39 PM
Tim Hunt	Thanks all.	10:30:02 PM
Rajesh Taneja	gn	10:30:03 PM
John	nigh	10:30:04 PM
Justin Filip	Thanks, all.	10:30:09 PM
Sam Hemelryk	Thanks and night!	10:30:09 PM
danbennett	G'day all!	10:30:10 PM
Martin Dougiamas	see ya all, now I'll go and collapse in jetlag	10:30:15 PM
Michael de Raadt	Thanks, all. Bye.	10:30:16 PM
OdyX	Thanks!	10:30:24 PM
jetha	thanks	10:30:33 PM

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